is it same person?

why so much competition...shouldnt all asian producers, korean,chinese,japanese and maybe even indian be cooperative and mainly take stake from US first
?
before hating on each other?

Hi i just joined today, and am not i hate china,

Also competition is a good thing (xbox and ps3 for example)
what we have with china and korea is not competion but dependence on Japan to make cars electronics. India is the same, bajaj and lml scooters are based on Piaggio italy and their truck of Merc Benz designs. Competition is a good thing (lexus vs 7 series vs s class), outright copy as happens in china is shameful. this is a observation i hope others will see and agree and debate about instead of labeling me as anti chinese and delete my posts.

Cheers
micheal:thumb:

Hi i just joined today, and am not i hate china,

Also competition is a good thing (xbox and ps3 for example)
what we have with china and korea is not competion but dependence on Japan to make cars electronics. India is the same, bajaj and lml scooters are based on Piaggio italy and their truck of Merc Benz designs. Competition is a good thing (lexus vs 7 series vs s class), outright copy as happens in china is shameful. this is a observation i hope others will see and agree and debate about instead of labeling me as anti chinese and delete my posts.

Cheers
micheal:thumb:

Micheal you will definitely spark debate :D

Dear Phaeton, i do believe china will be like Japan one day very soon, but the plagerism thats going on currently in the chinese auto industry is frankly very shameful. :(

I agree but these copied models hopefully will make enough money for the Chinese to Research & Develop their own model lines :)

well if critique/devils advocate helps China design better cars which the chinese can drive proudly anywhere in the world instead of being asamed of it then i will help as much as i can:) to put it another way China can keep Japan/germany from getting arrogant (overpriced$$) and threat/competion is a good thing for evry car buyer. China to take justified criticism and fixing thier plagerism is a good thing for the car buyers of the future.

well if critique/devils advocate helps China design better cars which the chinese can drive proudly anywhere in the world instead of being asamed of it then i will help as much as i can:) to put it another way China can keep Japan/germany from getting arrogant (overpriced$$) and threat/competion is a good thing for evry car buyer. China to take justified criticism and fixing thier plagerism is a good thing for the car buyers of the future.


lol real i hate will be happy that he has some support on a pessimistic perspective of chinese cars:nod:

when china's leaders decided to jump-start its auto industry, it basically turned a blind eye towards the blatant copying that resulted. i believe that the basic reason for this is that china wanted automobiles fast, very fast in order to meet the demands of the chinese people. the resulting copies were never meant to be exported, let alone held up as shining examples of chinese technology. i believe that the chinese are not particularly proud of these products. that is the very reason why regulations have been put in place to somehow control a situation fast spinning out of control. that's why they have a buddy system set up in the auto industry in china. they produce western models as well as locally-branded models. part of the deal allows the local partner to use dated technology & design of its western partner. all of this is basically fueled by the raging demand in the local market. so, the chinese don't copy because they like to, they copy because they have to-in order to meet local demand.

Thanks for that info Chinoy54, never knew that:thumb:

you're very welcome. i believe that one has to look at the recent history of china in order to appreciate the things that are going on there, even in the auto industry. we all applauded the opening up of china to the west, global corporations fell over themselves to sell their products in china simply because it was the biggest market in the world, & the chinese began to appreciate western goods & conveniences. they then began to produce them themselves-okay, in many cases started copying things they needed & wanted w/out permission. but, who told them that they had to get permission? the official line was-to produce is good, productivity equals self-sufficiency. how these goods got to the western markets was not due to the export outlook of the chinese, it was principally western companies who, driven by the profit motive, saw china as a cheap source of production & started the whole thing. you don't see many export representative offices of say, the fujian woolen booties knitting company (a fictitious company, i might add) in major cities, they don't have the marketing skills yet to do so. its the western companies that coming knocking on their door & ask if they could produce woolen booties to their specs at half the cost.

the analogy is, to a certain extent also true in the auto industry. for a very long time, 4-wheeled transport that wasn't commercial was limited to high-ranking officials & military officers. when china began opening up to western goods, guess who began producing cars in china-the usual suspects-GM, Ford, Toyota, et al. but the avreage chinese couldn't even dream of owning one of these products then, until enterprising companies like geely, chery, etc. began producing copies & selling them at a price w/ch the chinese could afford. the west gave the chinese the appetite for western goods, now the west blames them for
producing these goods at a lower price. we applaud the capitalistic urge to consume, yet we deride the products that feed the urge.

the analogy is, to a certain extent also true in the auto industry. for a very long time, 4-wheeled transport that wasn't commercial was limited to high-ranking officials & military officers. when china began opening up to western goods, guess who began producing cars in china-the usual suspects-GM, Ford, Toyota, et al. but the avreage chinese couldn't even dream of owning one of these products then, until enterprising companies like geely, chery, etc. began producing copies & selling them at a price w/ch the chinese could afford. the west gave the chinese the appetite for western goods, now the west blames them for
producing these goods at a lower price. we applaud the capitalistic urge to consume, yet we deride the products that feed the urge.

i like the way u explain things, very clear and to the point, the above quote really explains some of the reasons why these enterprising compaines sprang up. So tell me this when the japanese, usa build cars in china, why was the price high for the chinese not to be able to afford them, was it chinese govt taxes or the foreigners were greedy??

I agree with Japan that it is bad that Chinese car makers copy, but lets not forgot how Toyota, Mitsubishi and many Japanese car makers started. They all were copied from European and American designs. No Japan is not like I_Hate_China (thank goodness) lol.

thanks for the comment Rise of the Revolution;)

thanks for the comment Rise of the Revolution;)

Thank you for the thank you for the comment god_bless_japan :nono:

I agree with Japan that it is bad that Chinese car makers copy, but lets not forgot how Toyota, Mitsubishi and many Japanese car makers started. They all were copied from European and American designs. No Japan is not like I_Hate_China (thank goodness) lol.

very true, but the Japanese also studied their european and US competition and discovered chinks in thier armour, like british cars had very bad after sales back up in USA. Japanese smanufacturers sorted this issues very quickly and took on Europe and Usa and won. The Datsun 240z single handledly dealt the MG, jaguar a death blow in the american market and america loves datsun 240Z. Subaru legacy/impreza copied Audi quattro/ lancia delta 4wd system and made a better car.

I see no such unique ness with chinese manufactuers against their EU/US/japan competition. i would even argue that japan gives JV with chinese companies to keep China dependent on Japan(engines,chasis etc) and so that china do not develop/invest and become more independent/ self sufficient

very true, but the Japanese also studied their european and US competition and discovered chinks in thier armour, like british cars had very bad after sales back up in USA. Japanese smanufacturers sorted this issues very quickly and took on Europe and Usa and won. The Datsun 240z single handledly dealt the MG, jaguar a death blow in the american market and america loves datsun 240Z. Subaru legacy/impreza copied Audi quattro/ lancia delta 4wd system and made a better car.

I see no such unique ness with chinese manufactuers against their EU/US/japan competition. i would even argue that japan gives JV with chinese companies to keep China dependent on Japan(engines,chasis etc) and so that china do not develop/invest and become more independent/ self sufficient

Japanese cars may look like dominating the US market but in Europe? NO, not even close!

I rarely see Japanese cars on Paris' streets, 60% are Renault, Peugeot and Citroen, another 30% are Opel, VW, Mercedes, BMW, Audi etc, a fraction of around 3~5% are actually Japanese brands.

how right you are, tiggo. you have to pardon our fellow forum member god_bless_japan. our good friend has the tendency to base his comments on observations plucked out of thin air, very nearly, but not quite, figments of his imagination. some facts are there, i agree, but largely taken out of context.

"I see no such unique ness with chinese manufactuers against their EU/US/japan competition. i would even argue that japan gives JV with chinese companies to keep China dependent on Japan(engines,chasis etc) and so that china do not develop/invest and become more independent/ self sufficient"

your comment belies a basic ignorance of the chinese auto industry as it develops at the present time. and the conclusion you derive from the whole joint-venture philosophy is insulting, if not laughable. first of all, the chinese companies did not start off begging the japanese for joint-venture arrangements, they were doing very well supplying the local market w/ old japanese & american technology, ok-copied outright-from prototypes brought to china in the era before deng. dongfeng, faw, yuejin, baic ( now foton motor) were producing for chinese market way before the japanese were in the market. now, i'm talking commercial vehicles here, cars were only for big shots. the first successful joint-venture w/a foreign brand was the vw/saic tie-up, w/ch even up to now is producing the santana in the hundreds of thousands-almost all taxis are santanas. when the market opened up, the japanese saw china as the world's biggest untapped market, & together w/ everyone else made a beeline for joint-venture companies. japanese-branded products are not very popular in china, GM & Hyundai outsells even toyota, imagine that. there is & will always be the lingering antipathy towards japan because of ww2 & japan's refusal to apologize for, or even acknowledge their past transgressions , & the chinese have, as their ultimate goal, to out-japanese the japanese. if anything, the japanese had to make the ultimate sacrifice, share their technology w/ a rival whose ultimate goal is to surpass them, all for a chance not to be left out of the biggest single market in the world. the chinese could have done to the japanese what they did to boeing in china. the chinese gov't ordered all chinese regional airlines to shift their orders from boeing to airbus, but they didn't do this to the japanese out of the goodness of their hearts, also i suspect because the chinese are pan-asiatic, & still favor asians to non-asians.

so, it will be the chinese, i think, who will have the last laugh when toyota will no longer be a japanese company because it was the subject of a hostile takeover from shanghai automotive. this could happen. look at rover, now part of nac.

... it will be the chinese, i think, who will have the last laugh when toyota will no longer be a japanese company because it was the subject of a hostile takeover from shanghai automotive. this could happen. look at rover, now part of nac.

Following Shanghai Auto's trillion dollar takeover of Toyota, GM suddenly swop in and took ownership of Shanghai and then asset stripped it to bail the Chinese out of insolvency :D

Ok, this fantasy story will continue...who's taking over?

i'm not saying that this will happen, i'm only pointing out that, given the right conditions,etc. this could be a possibility. don't forget that saic has joint ventures w/ some big names in china, gm being one of them. for all you know, at the time that gm takes over toyota, to take your point further, it may already be owned by shanghai auto.

so, it will be the chinese, i think, who will have the last laugh when toyota will no longer be a japanese company because it was the subject of a hostile takeover from shanghai automotive. this could happen. look at rover, now part of nac.

very doubtful, the Japanese govt and its people will never stand back to let this happen, to let one of their institution be bought by china, no way:thumb: :nono:

Rover, that piece of unreliable crap, god knows what the chinese see in it:nono: they were inferior copies of outdated honda civic and accord, nothing wrong with the ORIGINAL honda's though. The management in the factory, the built quality, lack of after slaes, everything was bad at rover, where as Honda goes from strength to strength. When Chinese NAC bought Rover as u say, they paid $$ down the drain.

[QUOTE=god_bless_japan]very doubtful, the Japanese govt and its people will never stand back to let this happen, to let one of their institution be bought by china, no way:thumb: :nono:

by the way, do you know who owns NISSAN MOTORS nowadays? how about this-who is the single biggest shareholder of MITSUBISHI MOTORS?

Guys, isn't it pointless to speculate or make-believe about the future of Toyota, GM or SAIC when there's no basis to all that. What's going on?

Chinoy, I can see from the other posts that you have business interests involving Chinese cars but I think you should maintain a degree of sensibility based on reality and facts. It is understandable that every dealer would want the best of their principal, but so are the rest in your country who are representing the Japanese and European brands. Business decisions must not be clouded by personal prejudice or likes or dislikes but rather by economic factors and market's demand or interests, etc.

Rover, that piece of unreliable crap, god knows what the chinese see in it:nono: they were inferior copies of outdated honda civic and accord, nothing wrong with the ORIGINAL honda's though. The management in the factory, the built quality, lack of after slaes, everything was bad at rover, where as Honda goes from strength to strength. When Chinese NAC bought Rover as u say, they paid $$ down the drain.


The Brits are very good innovators, chassis engineers (they engineered just about the best handling cars in the world) and designers (they design some of the most beautiful cars in the world) but they are lousy business managers and decision makers who minds are oftentimes impaired by their deludging sense of great heritage, history, superiority and supremacy - all these the undesirable remnants of the British world empire. :(

Just look at Jaguar - one of the industry's laggard and sick child. How far has it evolved and kept up with times? While the Brits take pleasure in ridiculing Lexus, Toyota and the rest go from strength to strength just as quick as the British motor industry sank deeper, deeper and disappeared :D

As long as the pragmatic Japanese (who pioneered the car industry's gold standards such as JIT, the Toyota Way and the culture of kaizen) don't ape the deludging Brits, then all's going to be well. And the Chinese is going to have a hard time fighting the Japanese. I can sense that although the Brits can't do in on their own feet, they are staging a comeback via China. How interesting indeed, mate!

Chinoy, I can see from the other posts that you have business interests involving Chinese cars but I think you should maintain a degree of sensibility based on reality and facts. It is understandable that every dealer would want the best of their principal, but so are the rest in your country who are representing the Japanese and European brands. Business decisions must not be clouded by personal prejudice or likes or dislikes but rather by economic factors and market's demand or interests, etc.

i don't see where my "sensibility" has been compromised by my post. maybe you mean "objectivity". first of all, i was reacting to, what i view, as a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole jv philosophy as applied to the chinese auto industry. then i presented a much abbreviated factual history of the auto industry in the days before deng. later, i mentioned the fact that japanese brands lag behind in sales in china when compared to american, european, & korean brands-again factual. the last paragraph was made very much with tongue in cheek, as yours was. i don't see how my "business decisions" are likely to be clouded by what i say on this forum. i like a free & frank exchange of ideas as much as the next person, though i feel obligated to point out erroneous perceptions based on a misreading of the facts, or in some cases, total ignorance of the facts.

by the way, do you know who owns NISSAN MOTORS nowadays? how about this-who is the single biggest shareholder of MITSUBISHI MOTORS?

nice post chinoy54 :thumb:

i don't see where my "sensibility" has been compromised by my post. maybe you mean "objectivity". the last paragraph was made very much with tongue in cheek, as yours was. i don't see how my "business decisions" are likely to be clouded by what i say on this forum. i like a free & frank exchange of ideas as much as the next person, though i feel obligated to point out erroneous perceptions based on a misreading of the facts, or in some cases, total ignorance of the facts.

Of course, I appreciate freedom of speech anytime but I can't see your sense of "objectivity" in most of your postings where fantasy are introduced according to the way you want things to turn out as you had favored. There's nothing wrong in being imaginative or having secret wishes but you shouldn't say it aloud lest you risked being ridiculed.

i fail to see where the "fantasy" lies in my post. please point it out, & i shall be eternally in your debt. i don't consider myself to be particularly imaginative, nor have i expressed any "secret wishes" in this or any public forum, so i would be grateful if you would be so kind as to point these out, & i shall apologize publicly to those whose sensibilities i have bruised.

Here is:
so, it will be the chinese, i think, who will have the last laugh when toyota will no longer be a japanese company because it was the subject of a hostile takeover from shanghai automotive. this could happen. look at rover, now part of nac.

and here:
i'm not saying that this will happen, i'm only pointing out that, given the right conditions,etc. this could be a possibility. don't forget that saic has joint ventures w/ some big names in china, gm being one of them. for all you know, at the time that gm takes over toyota, to take your point further, it may already be owned by shanghai auto.


and here:
[QUOTE=god_bless_japan]very doubtful, the Japanese govt and its people will never stand back to let this happen, to let one of their institution be bought by china, no way:thumb: :nono:

by the way, do you know who owns NISSAN MOTORS nowadays? how about this-who is the single biggest shareholder of MITSUBISHI MOTORS?

and one more:
all of this is basically fueled by the raging demand in the local market. so, the chinese don't copy because they like to, they copy because they have to-in order to meet local demand.

Hey mate! Cool down. This is only a forum discussion :) Ok, I am a fan of Toyota (who doesn't these days) but I don't work for them or indeed anyone in the motor industry - I speak up because I feel there ought to be a voice that exalt the facts and truth. Period.

:rolleyes: thats weird , god bless japan had like 200 posts in 1 day and now disappears

weirdo alert

Maybe he has an girlfriend now :D