Convince me why I should buy a Chinese car.

[Real_I_Hate_China]

I could buy a Toyota Yaris with first-class engineering, quality, and mileage for $10,950.

So why should I choose a Geely CK over a Toyota Yaris?

If Chinese automakers cannot answer this question, then they shouldn't even bother knocking the doors of US market. Chinese market is big enough for them, stay home.

[fm.illuminatus]

It's cheaper? :D

[oo4load]

What kind of Yaris would you get for $10k? 1.0l engine and 2 doors?

A 1.3l 5door Yaris costs $18000 where I live. (Netherlands) Yes, vehicle prices are rediculously high here (some 40% tax).

So why would you buy a Yaris when you can buy a $11500 car with more interior space and a 1.5l engine? We have a car like that here already, the Dacia Logan (cheap Renault built in Romania). It's not a high tech car, but neither was my 94 Hyunday Scoupe and I still enjoyed driving that.

But I have to agree on one thing, I wouldn't buy a Chinese car unless they improve quality by about 100000%. Except for the Zhonghua M1 and the Chery OrientalSun, I haven't seen any decent cars during my visits to China in the past 3 years.

[jikki]

time will tell~

[E46DinanM3]

The liftback Yaris with the 1.5L starts at $10,500 here in the states. I'm pretty sure that is the cheapest car available here.

[Admin]

The liftback Yaris with the 1.5L starts at $10,500 here in the states. I'm pretty sure that is the cheapest car available here.'

When did it hit the US market?

[E46DinanM3]

Very recently, as in the last month or two I think

[V8Power]

I dont think anyone will honestly in N/A buy a chinese car if they are marketed as "Chinese" cars. There's an image attached to china (piracy,$1 store crap, mr.Mao,...). Until they stop pirating evrything from dvds to shoes, this image will ultimately drag them down, especially if the cars they try to sell here are highly dervative designwise.

[hazik]

americans will buy anything. Look at daewoo, they only made crappy cars and they sold alot in the 2 years they were in north america. I would rather buy a Chery than a Daewoo.

[Admin]

HYUNDAI is a perfect example...started off with the EXCEL!!! which was the cheapest and one of the worst/cheapest quality overall in US/CDN markets...and look how hyundai grew!! and finally this year they are launching luxery cars to compete with NISSAN maxima..this is big improvement

CHERY AND GEEELY will be like this...but over time :)

[hazik]

HYUNDAI is a perfect example...started off with the EXCEL!!! which was the cheapest and one of the worst/cheapest quality overall in US/CDN markets...and look how hyundai grew!! and finally this year they are launching luxery cars to compete with NISSAN maxima..this is big improvement

CHERY AND GEEELY will be like this...but over time :)

Chery and Geely won't take as long as Hyundai to grow big. If all ethnic Chinese people bought Chery and Geely instead of foreign brands Chery and Geely would already be the largest car manufacterers in the world.

[Admin]

Chery and Geely won't take as long as Hyundai to grow big. If all ethnic Chinese people bought Chery and Geely instead of foreign brands Chery and Geely would already be the largest car manufacterers in the world.


LOL!!!!!! the US will think it is a conspiracy and stop letting asians in the US thinking they will boycott GM and FORD:lol:

[hazik]

LOL!!!!!! the US will think it is a conspiracy and stop letting asians in the US thinking they will boycott GM and FORD:lol:


very few asians in the US drive American cars. They drive japanese cars most, some others drive German and korean cars but very few drive american cars.

[jikki]

chery will grow bigger,but geely is hard to say...:nod:

[Real_I_Hate_China]

HYUNDAI is a perfect example...
Hyundai is NOT the perfect example.

started off with the EXCEL!!! which was the cheapest and one of the worst/cheapest quality overall in US/CDN markets...
At least Hyundai's engineering was contemporary(Thanks to Mitsusbishi) and this is why people took the bait; Chery's engineering don't look quite contemporary.

and look how hyundai grew!! and finally this year they are launching luxery cars to compete with NISSAN maxima..this is big improvement
At the cost of tens of billions of dollars poured into R&D.

CHERY AND GEEELY will be like this...but over time
Do Chery and Geely have $60 billion/year parents providing tens of billions of dollars in R&D money???

It costs at least $500 million ~ $1 billion to define a chassis structure and $200 million to put a body over it. If you cannot afford to blow at least $2~3 billion a year in R&D, then you cannot compete.

If all ethnic Chinese people bought Chery and Geely instead of foreign brands Chery and Geely would already be the largest car manufacterers in the world.
All the Chinese people are driving Japanese and German cars. You can count overseas Chinese out as potential customer base.

[hazik]

All the Chinese people are driving Japanese and German cars. You can count overseas Chinese out as potential customer base.

Many overseas Chinese are nationalistic, they'll buy a chinese car just because it's a chinese car. Just like nationalistic koreans buy korean cars just because they are korean cars. I bought a Chery because the Chery logo means Chinese pride to many Chinese people.

[Real_I_Hate_China]

they'll buy a chinese car just because it's a chinese car.
You overestimate them. Shouting "China Power" at some sporting event is one thing; actually driving a Chinese car everyday is another. Beside, Chinese are historically known for being unpatriotic.

Just like nationalistic koreans buy korean cars just because they are korean cars.
??? Koreans don't buy Korean cars outside of Korea, it is all BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus for them. Ditto for overseas Chinese.

I bought a Chery because the Chery logo means Chinese pride to many Chinese people.
But would you still buy a Chery when you can buy a comparable Toyota(sans leather seats) for less???

[edge]

I dont think anyone will honestly in N/A buy a chinese car if they are marketed as "Chinese" cars. There's an image attached to china (piracy,$1 store crap, mr.Mao,...). Until they stop pirating evrything from dvds to shoes, this image will ultimately drag them down, especially if the cars they try to sell here are highly dervative designwise.


I think people have short memories. When the first Japanese cars came to the US, Japanese goods also had a reputation for being cheap and shoddy. So did the Koreans.

People always doubt the unfamiliar, but when Chinese cars have been in the US for a while, people will not think twice about them.

[edge]

You overestimate them. Shouting "China Power" at some sporting event is one thing; actually driving a Chinese car everyday is another. Beside, Chinese are historically known for being unpatriotic.


??? Koreans don't buy Korean cars outside of Korea, it is all BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus for them. Ditto for overseas Chinese.


But would you still buy a Chery when you can buy a comparable Toyota(sans leather seats) for less???


If the Chinese cars prove themselves to be of decent quality (at least comparable to Hyundai) I would prefer to buy Chinese cars, because I want to support China's industries.

[edge]

Many overseas Chinese are nationalistic, they'll buy a chinese car just because it's a chinese car. Just like nationalistic koreans buy korean cars just because they are korean cars. I bought a Chery because the Chery logo means Chinese pride to many Chinese people.


What country are you from? Are you from the Middle East?

[pokershark]

As soon as people see Chery enter the US market, they will get tons of foreign investment, ..

You overestimate them. Shouting "China Power" at some sporting event is one thing; actually driving a Chinese car everyday is another. Beside, Chinese are historically known for being unpatriotic.


??? Koreans don't buy Korean cars outside of Korea, it is all BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus for them. Ditto for overseas Chinese.


But would you still buy a Chery when you can buy a comparable Toyota(sans leather seats) for less???

[E46DinanM3]

As soon as people see Chery enter the US market, they will get tons of foreign investment, ..

I think they said that about Yugo too...

[PyroC]

You overestimate them. Shouting "China Power" at some sporting event is one thing; actually driving a Chinese car everyday is another. Beside, Chinese are historically known for being unpatriotic.


??? Koreans don't buy Korean cars outside of Korea, it is all BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus for them. Ditto for overseas Chinese.


But would you still buy a Chery when you can buy a comparable Toyota(sans leather seats) for less???

Im wondering how you came to conclude that Chinese are unpatriotic... What historical event are you refering to?

I don't know why you are asking people to convince you to buy a Chinese car. You seem to be doing the opposite already so you should probably have the answer yourself.

If the cars are complete crap, noone would want to buy them. It would be hard to justify the purchase even for hardcore patriotic overseas Chinese. On the flip side, if the cars have decent quality at the right price and warrenty, I don't see why it wouldn't sell. Just because Toyota has a similar priced car and a respectable track record, it doesn't mean people won't go out and look at what their competitor has to offer.

Im not saying that the Chinese cars will definitely succeed. But if they play their cards right, they will eventually make it because there seems to be a growing interest in Chinese cars. I believe a lot of people will just sit on the sidelines, waiting for other people to buy it to see if it's any good. But the interest in the cars are there from what i've read. Heck, thats the reason im here anyways. JMO.

[Admin]

I think they said that about Yugo too...

very good point :o

[fightingtorque]

never mind buy a chinese car. i expect america would vote one in as president.

[fightingtorque]

anybody who finds the chinese unpatriotic must be talking about a different china on a different planet.

[oo4load]

My experience with my Chinese wife, in-laws, friends etc.. is thay they love their country, but don't like chinese brand products at all!
They only buy japanese & european stuff.

[edge]

My experience with my Chinese wife, in-laws, friends etc.. is thay they love their country, but don't like chinese brand products at all!
They only buy japanese & european stuff.


That's true to an extent. It also depends on where they are from. HK Chinese and Taiwanese are probably the least likely to buy Chinese brands. Mainland Chinese, they know that Chinese products typically are not on par with foreign products, but there is a good percentage who would buy Chinese products just to support China. I think even though many Chinese would prefer to buy foreign brands because of quality issues, they still feel ashamed that China isn't doing well enough. However, there are some industries where Chinese brands have become very competitive with foreign brands, particularly in the appliance and computer industries, and Chinese brands are very dominant in these areas in China.

I think that Chinese and Americans are similar to an extent in this reguard. Americans are very nationalistic too, but they often buy foreign products instead of American brands. This is unlike Japanese and Koreans, who stick to their own products no matter what. Chinese and Americans are similar in many other ways too, besides just that area.

[fm.illuminatus]

americans will buy anything. Look at daewoo, they only made crappy cars and they sold alot in the 2 years they were in north america. I would rather buy a Chery than a Daewoo.

Daewoo is out of business now... not exactly a crowning success.

[fm.illuminatus]

My experience with my Chinese wife, in-laws, friends etc.. is thay they love their country, but don't like chinese brand products at all!
They only buy japanese & european stuff.

My mom is full chinese and immigrated from shanghai in the late 60's. When I told her about chinese cars she frowned, made a disappointed snort and said something to the effect of "I bet they are junky".

[fm.illuminatus]

That's true to an extent. It also depends on where they are from. HK Chinese and Taiwanese are probably the least likely to buy Chinese brands. Mainland Chinese, they know that Chinese products typically are not on par with foreign products, but there is a good percentage who would buy Chinese products just to support China. I think even though many Chinese would prefer to buy foreign brands because of quality issues, they still feel ashamed that China isn't doing well enough. However, there are some industries where Chinese brands have become very competitive with foreign brands, particularly in the appliance and computer industries, and Chinese brands are very dominant in these areas in China.

I think that Chinese and Americans are similar to an extent in this reguard. Americans are very nationalistic too, but they often buy foreign products instead of American brands. This is unlike Japanese and Koreans, who stick to their own products no matter what. Chinese and Americans are similar in many other ways too, besides just that area.

Americans (and Chinese it seems, from what you are saying) for the large part are not dillusional when it comes to the reality of brand quality. American cars are poorly made, compared to european and japanese cars, but they are still lightyears better than the best chinese car. However, most Americans WILL gladly buy other american brands and see the low quality of American cars as an exception to a general image of American quality, not the rule. More importantly, American cars, despite the fact they are viewed as less reliable are still viewed generally viewed as safe. People can deal with less reliability (especially when warrentees are involved), but very few American comsumers are willing to sacrifice safety.

[hazik]

My mom is full chinese and immigrated from shanghai in the late 60's. When I told her about chinese cars she frowned, made a disappointed snort and said something to the effect of "I bet they are junky".


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion

[Real_I_Hate_China]

I would rather buy a Chery than a Daewoo.
Well, at least Daewoo actually spent billions on engineering its own cars. The same cannot be said of Chery pirating Daewoos.

[hazik]

Well, at least Daewoo actually spent billions on engineering its own cars. The same cannot be said of Chery pirating Daewoos.

At least Chery makes it's own engines, they didn't just copy engines from someone else.

here are pics of Chery's 3.0 liter VVT V6 engine

http://www.xdfzz.net/UploadFile/2006-3/200632916545694270.jpg

http://www.xdfzz.net/UploadFile/2006-3/20063291656068157.jpg

http://www.xdfzz.net/UploadFile/2006-3/20063291655935284.jpg

http://www.xdfzz.net/UploadFile/2006-3/200632916562095024.jpg

[Real_I_Hate_China]

At least Chery makes it's own engines, they didn't just copy engines from someone else.
Who else in the auto industry but Chery illegally copies another automaker's engine?

here are pics of Chery's 3.0 liter VVT V6 engine
Chery didn't design this engine; the design is licensed from AVL. Chey couldn't fix it if a problem is found. Why? Because they didn't design this engine.

But at least this is a positive direction for Chery; they are now beginning to pay for designs they use instead of stealing them.

[edge]

Americans (and Chinese it seems, from what you are saying) for the large part are not dillusional when it comes to the reality of brand quality. American cars are poorly made, compared to european and japanese cars, but they are still lightyears better than the best chinese car. However, most Americans WILL gladly buy other american brands and see the low quality of American cars as an exception to a general image of American quality, not the rule. More importantly, American cars, despite the fact they are viewed as less reliable are still viewed generally viewed as safe. People can deal with less reliability (especially when warrentees are involved), but very few American comsumers are willing to sacrifice safety.


Considering that I've known two people who almost died when their Ford Explorers blew tires and tumbled around on the highway, leaving permanent scars on their foreheads and arms, I don't know if I can agree that American cars are really all that safe.

[oo4load]

Yes, Ford has a great safety record. From the Pinto, to the Crown Victoria and the F150... If it costs $20 per car to save lives, they'll take the $20 instead.

http://www.fordpinto.com/blowup.htm

http://www.crownvictoriasafetyalert.com/

http://www.bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTestingMINICooperVsFordF150

[fm.illuminatus]

Considering that I've known two people who almost died when their Ford Explorers blew tires and tumbled around on the highway, leaving permanent scars on their foreheads and arms, I don't know if I can agree that American cars are really all that safe.

Ok, American cars are safe excluding ford. :D

[cryptonx]

made it to the us
or did not make it

if they improve they will be better and alot more popular

Some FAMOUS AND POPULAR auto makers not even very well known in the US and rarely to almost NOT available ...

Seat / Fiat / Daihatsu / Perodua / Proton / Rover / Renault / Dacia / Lancia bla bla

I drove a chery a11( i am not chinese ) and compared it to my Dads 1995 Toyota Corrolla .. performance / comfortable / space wise, the chery is alot better

the only thing I didnt like was the plastic looking interior

my dads 1994 corrolla had no abs no airbags and it costs x2 the cost of the chery NOW . the new 2006 corrolla costs 3x the chery a11 and doesn't come with abs not even a cd-player and not even sport rims .

Toyota corrolas waranty is 3 years - 60,000 KM here
Cherys Waranty is 4 years - 90,000 KM

spare parts , cherys spare parts are 50 to 70% cheaper than toyotas !
and u can use seat toledo/VW jetta spare parts which are still widely avaialble here.

the toyota yaris you speak of , 1.3L - half options costs $19,000 here
the cheapest Contender to the chery is the following :

Proton Wira 1.5L - full options ( Malysian 1992 lancer . discountinued at malysia .. still for some sick reason on sale here )

Hyundai Accent ( 1999 OLDEST SHAPE - BUILT AND MADE IN EGYPT ( my country ) 1.3 L NO FEATURES . not even an A/C !!

Hyundai Accent ( 2001 old shape ) 1.5L - powersteering-a/c also built in egypt

Fiat Palio ( 2006 ) Made in brazil , and its a very small hatchback (supermini ) made by Fiat For DEVELOPING COUNTRIES >> ( ie not for sale in europe and so )

Daewoo Lanos ( not the aveo , the old Lanos - built in egypt ) 1.5L - half options ... ( need I comment ? )

so if you look closely the $8000 to $11,000 market here is dominated by OLDER rebuilt cars , or superminis or totally crappy old cars so the chery a11 is always a winner for a country like ours
price wise / feature wise and space wise .

its the cheapest 1.6 L full featured car and has alot more space than many expensive ones ..

see the point ?
Its not just about build quality and all your yada yada !!!
i dont see any ECONOMY of buying a ZERO-FEATURES Accent for more money ! JUST BCUZ ITS A DAMN KOREAN HYUNDAI !

[ash]

Found this article on some proUS antiChina site

WHY YOU SHOULD NOT BUY
CHINESE MADE CARS.

Many Americans that spend extended periods of time away from their home country develop a keen sense of patriotism. My patriotism gradually evolved into an economic nationalism.

My rank on the economic battlefield was something like a field lieutenant. A low enough rank to be in the thick of the battle, yet high enough to know what was really going on. I was not an armchair general - nor a foot soldier.

In almost every encounter the pattern was always the same. Give us your money and your technology and then go away. Don't go away mad - just go away. Our Asian trading partners were not counting on many people staying in the game as long as I did. Usually it was just to get your "ticket punched" and then move on to your rightful place in corporate America.

Once you developed a real "relationship" your host would invariably ask the question, "What are the American people thinking?" What they really wanted to know was, "Have they figured out the scam yet?" (I replied that I'm disappointed that they have not. But I have.)

I have seen things in my hundreds of trips and years in the region that most Americans haven't. I don't expect all of you to practice economic nationalism like I do. I drive an American car with over 200,000 miles on it. I turn things over in stores and admonish the startled staff to carry more American products. I don't own an electric hair dryer because I can't find one made in the USA anymore. I also admit to having less hair than I used to.

I will never drive a Chinese made car until the day that our trade deficit with China comes into relative balance. OK maybe after what I've experienced I may never drive a Chinese made car. I sincerely hope that you will join me.

The temptation will be strong. You may see a Chinese made car for less than $5,000.00 US Dollars. Warranties may be extended. There may be a US or even a European brand name on the hood. You might say that you can't afford to buy a US car. I'm saying that you can't afford not to.

[hazik]

made
I drove a chery a11( i am not chinese ) and compared it to my Dads 1995 Toyota Corrolla .. performance / comfortable / space wise, the chery is alot better

the only thing I didnt like was the plastic looking interior

my dads 1994 corrolla had no abs no airbags and it costs x2 the cost of the chery NOW . the new 2006 corrolla costs 3x the chery a11 and doesn't come with abs not even a cd-player and not even sport rims .

Toyota corrolas waranty is 3 years - 60,000 KM here
Cherys Waranty is 4 years - 90,000 KM


!


does the Chery A11 in egypt look like this

http://www.chinamobil.ru/photo/ChFeng/full/09.jpghttp://www.chinamobil.ru/photo/ChFeng/full/13.jpg

or like this

http://www.mychery.net/forum/html/ut/attach/2006/03/07/5836690-P10100261-embed.jpg

and are there alot of them in egypt

[cryptonx]

the 1st one

and yes they are becoming ALOT ,, in the street i live in there's 2 already
so the QQ , they are becoming the no.1 girls car

And I know alot of ppl who do own it , no one complains , everyone is happy

the only things they dont like so far is the Loud engine and the Cheap interior then again when they consider the price they bought it for , they think it was very fair and very value for money .

i mean c'mon for $10,000 you get a
16V Sohc FORD CVH 1.6L - 95 HP Engine
93 Seat Toledo chasis
Valeo A/C - 2 siemens APV airbags - ABS with EPD
Power windows and Power mirrors
5 x 14" Alloy wheels
great trunk space
large sedane compared to the accent and lanos .

4 years waranty !

nothing could go wrong I guess

[Real_I_Hate_China]

93 Seat Toledo chasis
Valeo A/C - 2 siemens APV airbags - ABS with EPD
Old Toledo chassis makes it sure that the airbags are rendered useless in an actual crash. Just go watch a Landwind crash test video if you need a proof.

[fightingtorque]

the Ford CVH engine is 8v not 16v, although Chery are considering developing a 16v version of that engine.

A11 is available with 16v engine, originally the tritec engine (like BMW mini engine) and now they will install their new AVL designed units.

[hazik]

the Ford CVH engine is 8v not 16v, although Chery are considering developing a 16v version of that engine.

A11 is available with 16v engine, originally the tritec engine (like BMW mini engine) and now they will install their new AVL designed units.


Is the AVL V6 available in any car yet. What about the V8

[BringIt]

To answer the question of this topic.

No, you shouldn't buy a Chinese car if it does not offer the most value for your money - assuming that is your primary decision factor.

As we all know, lots of other factors influence car buying decisions - such as brand loyalty or even peer pressure. But for the sake of simplifying things, let's assume "value" is the only factor here.

For the Chinese cars to succeed in let's say the US market, the car must first be well designed and made. That's the minimum requirement for this market. Anything less, just forget it.

Then toss in a super long warranty to ease the fear of a new, unproven brand.

And of course, have the low sticker price to bring people in.

The Toyota Yaris for $10,500? That tiny bare-boned 3 door? If a Chinese car company can bring you a 4 door sedan, fully loaded, well designed and made, with a 10 year warranty, for under $10,000; I would think there's enough reason to take a good look at it.

The Geely CK show at Detroit is pathetic. I hope they never bring that. Give us a new version please.

[cryptonx]

at Fighting Torque

My mistake
THen the one being sold here is using the TRITEC engine , since the Dealer here is 100% sure that its 16V / SOHC using some double thing I didnty quite understand which makes it 16v not 8v .

[fightingtorque]

you definitely want to make sure of this - the price in china for the tritec engine version was much higher, it should be a much better engine.

but the tritec engine version was never offered in china in the earlier style bumpers car (top one in the pictures).

have a look at the engine - if 16v then the spark plugs are in the center of the engine, down through the middle of the cover. if the plugs are next to the exhaust manifold outlets then it's the ford origin 8v engine.

only good thing for the 8v engine is when it's turbocharged.........

[fm.illuminatus]

the 1st one

and yes they are becoming ALOT ,, in the street i live in there's 2 already
so the QQ , they are becoming the no.1 girls car

And I know alot of ppl who do own it , no one complains , everyone is happy

the only things they dont like so far is the Loud engine and the Cheap interior then again when they consider the price they bought it for , they think it was very fair and very value for money .

i mean c'mon for $10,000 you get a
16V Sohc FORD CVH 1.6L - 95 HP Engine
93 Seat Toledo chasis
Valeo A/C - 2 siemens APV airbags - ABS with EPD
Power windows and Power mirrors
5 x 14" Alloy wheels
great trunk space
large sedane compared to the accent and lanos .

4 years waranty !

nothing could go wrong I guess

Or I could get a used '95 bmw m3 with 240 hp, leather seats, power everything, cd changer, 17 by 8 inch sport wheels and suspension and great looks with wicked preformance. Or a used BMW 528i. Or a host of other used luxury cars or mid-range cars by more reputable brands, many of the cars still under warruntee.

[hazik]

Or I could get a used '95 bmw m3 with 240 hp, leather seats, power everything, cd changer, 17 by 8 inch sport wheels and suspension and great looks with wicked preformance. Or a used BMW 528i. Or a host of other used luxury cars or mid-range cars by more reputable brands, many of the cars still under warruntee.


WTF are you talking about, That dude lives in Egypt, you can't buy a used 95 bmw M3 in egypt. And even if you buy one in the US the car will break down. The reason most people sell their used cars in the first place is because their cars already have hugh problems and likely will break down, you'll end up calling a tow truck before you drive your car home.

[fightingtorque]

and a used 95 BMW is slower than a Ferrari, so what would be the point in that?

[cryptonx]

a used 95 bmw will still cost more than a new chery A11 here ,

you have to know something about the market here , ppl dont like to lose money !

IE , Daewoo Lanos ( not the new aveo ) is still on sale in Egypt ( Because its being built by some stupid egyptian factory ) for $11500

then you think that why not get a used 1999 Daewoo Lanos for example ! it would be still good and cheap ! to discover that the usesd lanos are in range of $8500 to $9500
which is totally useless

a used BMW 95 ( not even the m5 , just the regular 5 series ) costs $16000

Not to mention the 90,000 KM or even more !

funny classfieds : " BMW 316i 98 - JUST LIKE NEW ! 120,000 KM "
see ? this is considered a brand new car .. how much this one costs ? $21000 !

how much does the new BMW 320i cost ? ( which btw is beeing put together in egypt not imported , which means it should be cheaper , u think :D ) its for
$60,000 :D hehe

what a country I live in !
so you see chery has all the " FLAVOURS " of being a winner here , value for money here is a very bi issue !

except for mafioso kids , who just wants to buy a car that no one else has :D( I am not one , altho I wish I was )

[fightingtorque]

why all this talk about secondhand BMWs? I mean I've got a '93 530i back in England, it's a nice car, but I'm sure it isn't as fast as a Ferrari.

I use it to get the shopping and stuff. My wife likes driving it, it's comfortable.

But it's no Ferrari eater......

[fm.illuminatus]

WTF are you talking about, That dude lives in Egypt, you can't buy a used 95 bmw M3 in egypt. And even if you buy one in the US the car will break down. The reason most people sell their used cars in the first place is because their cars already have hugh problems and likely will break down, you'll end up calling a tow truck before you drive your car home.

Didn't realize he lived in egypt.

However, your attitude on used cars is rediculous. I haven't bought a new car in my life, and I've had some used cars that have been perfect (I had a BMW 525i and a BMW 325xi with absolutely no problems) and some with a few issues (my 540i needed some maintence and tires and my 740il is a disaster in terms of maintenence). Buying a used car is just a matter of doing your research. There are plenty of reasons people sell their used cars: they want something newer, are bored with what they have, want something more powerful, need something larger for the family, want something the handles better, etc. Simply unloading their junker on someone else is at the bottom of the list, and although it happens all the time, normally if you pull a carfax report you can avoid getting a lemon.

[fm.illuminatus]

a used 95 bmw will still cost more than a new chery A11 here ,

you have to know something about the market here , ppl dont like to lose money !

IE , Daewoo Lanos ( not the new aveo ) is still on sale in Egypt ( Because its being built by some stupid egyptian factory ) for $11500

then you think that why not get a used 1999 Daewoo Lanos for example ! it would be still good and cheap ! to discover that the usesd lanos are in range of $8500 to $9500
which is totally useless

a used BMW 95 ( not even the m5 , just the regular 5 series ) costs $16000

Not to mention the 90,000 KM or even more !

funny classfieds : " BMW 316i 98 - JUST LIKE NEW ! 120,000 KM "
see ? this is considered a brand new car .. how much this one costs ? $21000 !

how much does the new BMW 320i cost ? ( which btw is beeing put together in egypt not imported , which means it should be cheaper , u think :D ) its for
$60,000 :D hehe

what a country I live in !
so you see chery has all the " FLAVOURS " of being a winner here , value for money here is a very bi issue !

except for mafioso kids , who just wants to buy a car that no one else has :D( I am not one , altho I wish I was )

Oh, see, I didn't realize we where talking about chery in egypt. I though you were talking about bringin Chery to the U.S.

[fm.illuminatus]

and a used 95 BMW is slower than a Ferrari, so what would be the point in that?

Huh??? I was comparing the BMW to a Chery QQ not a Ferrari...

[fightingtorque]

fm.i , I wrote that in my Ferrari phase, don't worry about it. Much respect to your 540, I have an E34 530i touring with the V8 motor.

In England, I would also never consider buying a new car with my own money. However, Egypt may be a bit like China: in China, because the car sales have been growing every year, there aren't that many older cars around compared to the potential demand. Certainly in China I wouldn't buy a secondhand car, because people's expectations of value are just way too high - I'm going back a couple of years now but I've met people who bought secondhand cars with 300k km on the clock for around 40% of the new car price - in England that mileage would put the value at 10% of new or less.

[katsura]

Hi Torque,

I've just watched the clips on your site, it's quite funny to see the Chery vs F430 video. I'm surprised it sort of almost 'kept up' with the Ferrari, and not been tossed aside. Granted the F430 driver is a bit weak, guess this really shows that sometimes the driver is more important than car spec.

What's the spec on that car and have you done the mods on it?

Also are those silver cars Lioncels? I quite like them :). If the underpinnings are the same as old Mitsu Lancers, then there's tons of modding potential. My dad bought one of these in China, and last year when I was visiting him I kept thinking we should mod it, first step, add a TD-04 turbo charger :D.

P.S. you are not one of the Rover engineers that got hired by SAIC and now based in Shanghai are you? :)

[fightingtorque]

The Chery is not highly modified, the engine has a high lift cam and a pair of weber DCOE 40's (all ebay stuff!), chinese made sports exhaust system and a user programmable ECU running the ignition. I set it all up over a few late nights tearing up and down a quite road with my wideband ecu, g-force data logger and a bit of laptop work. it doesn't run perfectly, but it runs....

The suspension on the latest video (F430 one) is a bilstein non-adjustable sports kit that the chinadragonracing.com man had on the shelf (same as mk2 golf), whilst for brakes you can do a straight swap to santanna 2000 vented discs using calipers from the old audi 100, and it has (had, I just had to replace them as they were worn out!) Ferodo DS2000 pads.

Suspension on the earlier videos is more or less standard.

Most of the cars you mention in the videos are Lioncell's, but one or two are actually Mitsi Evo's - today I have just added a video clip taken inside an Evo, maybe doesn't look it in the clip but it was a really quick bit of kit.

I have seen 3 turbocharged Lioncells in shanghai, I know one of them was built by Sam's tuning shop, not sure about the others. One of them (a black one) is really quick on the track, I think he's made some times just outside 1min 20 (Evo Brian's real Evo with an extra 400cc and 4 wheel drive makes about 1.18.). They are definitely a car with potential, also since the 2.0 mitsubishi 4G63 (in non turbo form) engine is also produced in China, it should be possible to build something up....

Having said that, in the 1600 NA category it's the Honda Fits that are now the big news on the track, one of them posted a 1.23.25 last time I think, the guys have coilover suspension and big brakes but I think the engines are mainly just standard with air filter and exhaust changes. Still, 1.5 litres with VTEC in a small car gives them a bit of speed.

No, I don't work for Rover/ SAIC, I'm in engine components, although I know some of those guys as we are doing business.....

If you read Chinese ( just guessing from your 'Dad' comment) then have a look at www.cdr-club.com and www.stc2002.com which is the tianma circuit website which also has a forum.

cheers, FT

[katsura]

FT, cheers for the info and link, I'm going to have a read.

I got a question - what are the grades of petrol on sale in China? in the UK there's the standard 95RON unleaded and 97/98RON premium stuff, Tesco has started selling a 99RON blend with 5% ethanol.

My car (tuned Saab 9-5) shows markable difference when running on low and high grade. With 97/98 grade there's less knocking, more willing to pull and better MPG as well. Does your race organisers regulate the fuel grade?

While I was travelling in China last year I noted there seem to be 2 brands of petrol stations (all state owned?). Sino Pec or something and the other one :). there's no foreign filling stations like Shell. Can you get race grade fuel for track days or is it ordinary stuff from the pump?

[fightingtorque]

normal chinese petrol is 93, and most chinese market cars are specced to run on this.

97 is reasonably easy to get hold of in big cities, but you can't always get it on motorway service stations. It's about 10% more expensive.

98 is rare, but there are certainly places to get it in shanghai, but unfortunately not close to the race track. It's another 10% on top.

generally the spec of chinese fuel isn't well regulated which causes problems. they use a lot of MMT as an octane increasing additive, which contains manganese and blocks Catalytic converters, increases wear of valvegear and pistons, and forms electrically conductive deposits on the spark plugs. I think it may also do something to your brain, which is why it is banned in many countries.

i keep reading that shell and bp are going to build filling stations, but they keep not appearing. I have seen a few SK ones (Korean). the biggest problem with Chinese filling stations is that they don't sell pies.

chinadragon racing now have a shop at the track, and he sells octane booster additive. I usually use 97 Ron and that's what I set the car up on, mainly because the 98 shop is not on my normal commute.

The problem I guess you have with the saab, which I had when I was using efi, is that if you optimise the timing for high grade fuel, which gives a small but useful increase in power, when you switch back to low grade you get close to knocking sometimes, and the ecu/ knock sensor sees this and makes a huge retardation of ignition to protect the engine, and this robs a lot of power. with a clever ecu it will remember the problem, and even after you go back to good fuel it might take a couple of days to gradually return to the optimum timing.

[fm.illuminatus]

fm.i , I wrote that in my Ferrari phase, don't worry about it. Much respect to your 540, I have an E34 530i touring with the V8 motor.

In England, I would also never consider buying a new car with my own money. However, Egypt may be a bit like China: in China, because the car sales have been growing every year, there aren't that many older cars around compared to the potential demand. Certainly in China I wouldn't buy a secondhand car, because people's expectations of value are just way too high - I'm going back a couple of years now but I've met people who bought secondhand cars with 300k km on the clock for around 40% of the new car price - in England that mileage would put the value at 10% of new or less.

Ahh, I see your point.

And on a different note... you have an E34 530i Touring?? How does that 3.0 V8 sound? How is it on realiability? For some strange reason I've always liked the small V8 (I wish they imported the e39 535i here).

[fightingtorque]

it's a nice little V8 - sound is spot on, except of course that with an auto box hanging off the back of it you are quite limited in what noises you can make - no blips and barks I'm afraid.

Reliability has been fine so far, I picked it up about 3 years ago with about 140k miles on the clock, and because I only use it a few weeks of the year when back home I think it's only up to about 155 now. Occasionally have to feed it a little engine oil, but not much and it doesn't smoke.

Fuel consumption is about 22mpg, for some reason my wife gets more like 25, I guess it's because she is lighter than I am. Presumably the 535 and 540 use more fuel in return for an increase in performance that you probably don't need if it's your sensible car and you aren't trying to prove anything.

Note that it's always difficult to justify not having the most powerful version!

[benouna]

I am from algeria, and i have a chinese car , the reason for which i bought it is that is the best ratio quality/ price i have found, the are indian cars who have a low price but the chinese cars are betters, than if you are a rich man don’t buy chinese car, i suggest you BMW, MERCEDES, AUDI, or PORSCHE. It’s that that I would have made if i was rich.

[ash]

I am from algeria, and i have a chinese car , the reason for which i bought it is that is the best ratio quality/ price i have found, the are indian cars who have a low price but the chinese cars are betters, than if you are a rich man don’t buy chinese car, i suggest you BMW, MERCEDES, AUDI, or PORSCHE. It’s that that I would have made if i was rich.


hi benouna, what chinese car do you have in algeria? and which ones are available??

[fm.illuminatus]

it's a nice little V8 - sound is spot on, except of course that with an auto box hanging off the back of it you are quite limited in what noises you can make - no blips and barks I'm afraid.

Reliability has been fine so far, I picked it up about 3 years ago with about 140k miles on the clock, and because I only use it a few weeks of the year when back home I think it's only up to about 155 now. Occasionally have to feed it a little engine oil, but not much and it doesn't smoke.

Fuel consumption is about 22mpg, for some reason my wife gets more like 25, I guess it's because she is lighter than I am. Presumably the 535 and 540 use more fuel in return for an increase in performance that you probably don't need if it's your sensible car and you aren't trying to prove anything.

Note that it's always difficult to justify not having the most powerful version!

Well, I can justify it for you, my 540i gets an amazing 12 miles to the gallon, city, although I do get about 22 mpg highway. :D

155K and not major problems is pretty good too, I guess I hang around bimmerforums.com too much, everyone goes there to complain about their problems and sometimes I forget that BMW's are actually pretty reliable.

On a different note, you should do a manual conversion, that would be cool. :thumb: