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Wow that thing looks to be very poorly assembled.

That's what happens when Chery tries to design a car by itself.

Wow that thing looks to be very poorly assembled.

Yea, what's wrong with the hood fitment?

展车！！！

That's what happens when Chery tries to design a car by itself.

Design a car by itself?

You think koreans can do a proper design work? they need to ask the italians for help.

Design a car by itself?

You think koreans can do a proper design work? they need to ask the italians for help.
Again, you are confusing "engineering" with "styling".

When I said "design", I meant "engineering". Chery never engineered a chassis of its own before and S21 appears to be Chery's first major inhouse engineering work, stretching a Matiz chassis.

The problem is, Daewoo specifically optimized Matiz for 3.5x1.5 m dimension and the chassis may not be able to accept a 500 mm stretch. Most western car companies restrict a chassis stretch to 200 mm or less because of structural integrity issues. I know Daewoo itself would never stretch Matiz by 500 mm, they have another chassis falling in that dimension category.

Again, you are confusing "engineering" with "styling".

When I said "design", I meant "engineering". Chery never engineered a chassis of its own before and S21 appears to be Chery's first major inhouse engineering work, stretching a Matiz chassis.

The problem is, Daewoo specifically optimized Matiz for 3.5x1.5 m dimension and the chassis may not be able to accept a 500 mm stretch. Most western car companies restrict a chassis stretch to 200 mm or less because of structural integrity issues. I know Daewoo itself would never stretch Matiz by 500 mm, they have another chassis falling in that dimension category.

The problem is that you can whine all day long and people will still buy Chinese cars because we can make our cars better.

The problem is that you can whine all day long and people will still buy Chinese cars because we can make our cars better.

You can build your cars better?

I can understand if you said cheaper, but I have seen absolutely no evidence that China has made a GOOD car.

You can build your cars better?

I can understand if you said cheaper, but I have seen absolutely no evidence that China has made a GOOD car.

If you say so.

You can build your cars better?

I can understand if you said cheaper, but I have seen absolutely no evidence that China has made a GOOD car.
No point talking to a nationalistic Chinese. They just don't understand that any new car is expected to receive a "Good" rating in IIHS crash testing and not break down for 8 years with regular maintenance.

A car that does not break down for 8 years? Chinese never heard of such a thing in their homeland.

Maybe thats because there were barely any Chinese car manufacturers 8 years ago? :confused:

No point talking to a nationalistic Chinese. They just don't understand that any new car is expected to receive a "Good" rating in IIHS crash testing and not break down for 8 years with regular maintenance.

A car that does not break down for 8 years? Chinese never heard of such a thing in their homeland.

Look who's talking, a mental mastrabating American Korean who likes to associate Hyundai with Toyata and got pissed off by Chinese auto industry's rise?

Wake up, Korean cars will never have the reputation as TOYOTA and HONDA no matter how hard you try, quality is life, true! but sure Koreans don't dare to take innovation in order to keep the "technical failure rate" low. TFR Being lower than average German cars doesn't mean you make better cars.

If you hate Chery so much, you'd have signed up as "I hate Chery" instead of yer current shititle which is biased enough to get you a permanent ban on any international forum.

Wake up, Korean cars will never have the reputation as TOYOTA and HONDA no matter how hard you try,
What happens to Koreans doesn't interest me; I am a Toyota driver myself and would never consider a Chinese car.

If you hate Chery so much, you'd have signed up as "I hate Chery" instead of yer current shititle which is biased enough to get you a permanent ban on any international forum.
Not just Chery, but Geely, Jiangling, and Shuanghuan pirate bunch.

What happens to Koreans doesn't interest me; I am a Toyota driver myself and would never consider a Chinese car.


Not just Chery, but Geely, Jiangling, and Shuanghuan pirate bunch.

What model toyota do you drive. do you know toyota pirates alot of cars. Most of the Lexus cars were pirated from Mercedes Benz.

What happens to Koreans doesn't interest me; I am a Toyota driver myself and would never consider a Chinese car.


Not just Chery, but Geely, Jiangling, and Shuanghuan pirate bunch.


I don't think it was too long ago that Korean cars also had a reputation for being cheap and copycats of others. I don't know why you find it so difficult to believe that China can get to world standards when Korea has, despite the fact that China has 1000X the resources, market and potential to get there. Or do you want to claim that Chinese are an inferior race? Well, if that was the case, there is nothing more pathetic than Koreans, who copied their entire culture from an "inferior race".

You know what? You just sound like a lonely, depressed, angry, bitter person. Look at the title you decided to choose. That's the face you want to show the world? That you hate another country? Unfortunately, there are many Koreans just like you, that's why so many other ethnicities find it so hard to get along with Koreans. Unfortunately for you, even though you might hate China, your brothers and sisters in your homeland will be speaking Chinese in this coming generation and in the future.

What model toyota do you drive.
98 Camry LE.

do you know toyota pirates alot of cars.
Clearly, we have a language problem and you do not seem to understand the meaning of "piracy" as it means in the West.

A "Styling Inspirated by Somebody else's work" is not piracy, it is an inspiration. Cars look alike with each other all the time and it's OK, as long as it doesn't look 99% identical.

"Piracy" means theft of somebody else's design work without his permission, as done by Chery and dozen other Chinese firms. Mechanical parts replication without permission is illegal everywhere but China. When Chery replicates Matiz and sells it as QQ in China, you have a case of piracy here.

Most of the Lexus cars were pirated from Mercedes Benz.
When you say this line to a westerner he doesn't understand what you mean, as "piracy" means illegal mechanical replication and Toyota did no such thing. Looking similar is fine.

I don't think it was too long ago that Korean cars also had a reputation for being cheap and copycats of others.
Cheap yes. Copycat no. Hell, those Korean cars weren't even being designed by Koreans, but by Mitsubish(for Hyundai), GM(for Daewoo), and Ford/Mazda(for Kia). Since it was Mitsubish, GM, and Ford/Mazda themselves supplying Koreans with original designs to build, copycat arguement doesn't hold.

I don't know why you find it so difficult to believe that China can get to world standards when Korea has
Simple.

1. The automotive safety, quality, and emissions standards in developed markets have risen to the point where it blocks out any entry attempts by newcomers. I mean, you need to achieve PZEV(Partially Zero Emission Vehicle) or SULEV(Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle) to sell cars in California nowadays, and how is Chery or Geely supposed to attain that when even GM and Ford are having trouble meeting those?

2. Lack of fund. Hyundai(The only one to break into the US market) got a $20 billion in cash injection from its parent. I don't know where Chery is going to get $20 billion in cash injection from.

Cheap yes. Copycat no. Hell, those Korean cars weren't even being designed by Koreans, but by Mitsubish(for Hyundai), GM(for Daewoo), and Ford/Mazda(for Kia). Since it was Mitsubish, GM, and Ford/Mazda themselves supplying Koreans with original designs to build, copycat arguement doesn't hold.


Simple.

1. The automotive safety, quality, and emissions standards in developed markets have risen to the point where it blocks out any entry attempts by newcomers. I mean, you need to achieve PZEV(Partially Zero Emission Vehicle) or SULEV(Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle) to sell cars in California nowadays, and how is Chery or Geely supposed to attain that when even GM and Ford are having trouble meeting those?

2. Lack of fund. Hyundai(The only one to break into the US market) got a $20 billion in cash injection from its parent. I don't know where Chery is going to get $20 billion in cash injection from.


You do realize that Chery and many other automakers (with Geely as one of the rare exceptions, a completely private firm with no ties to the government) are state industries, do you? In fact, the reason why it has survived is because the local government made big purchases on Chery cars to support the company. That's why it has grown as fast as it has.

China's government supports its automakers and the government isn't exactly poor, in fact, it holds the world's greatest foreign reserves. Anyways, China's government has the auto industry as a major focus as one of the pillar industries of the Chinese economy, and one of the clear goals for the next few years is the establishment of Chinese brands, something that was neglected for many years.

You're way off on that one.

You do realize that Chery and many other automakers (with Geely as one of the rare exceptions, a completely private firm with no ties to the government) are state industries, do you?
But the city government financing Chery is rather poor, unlike Shanghai city government financing SAIC. $200 million seems like a lot of money for Chery, going by loan announcement and requiring Malcolm Bricklin to come up with that amount for the US launch.

China's government supports its automakers and the government isn't exactly poor
I would like to know how much cash Wuhu city government has to fund Chery. Certainly not $20 billion that Hyundai spent on Hyundai Motors and $25 billion that Samsung was willing to commit to its failed Samsung Motors. Remember, these companies are industrial giants with an annual sales exceeding $150 billion, only companies of such scale can afford to get into automotive business and become a serious global player.

in fact, it holds the world's greatest foreign reserves.
That's Chinese communist party's reserve, not Wuhu city government's reserve.

You're way off on that one.
If Chery was flush with cash, then they would actually have an army of 10,000 engineers(typical of companies in global top 5) housed in a giant R&D complex the size of Chery's factory complete with a 5 mile test track developing 10 cars simultanously. I don't think I even saw a test track at Chery headquarter from videos, just a factory and no R&D.

If Chery was flush with cash, then they would actually have an army of 10,000 engineers(typical of companies in global top 5) housed in a giant R&D complex the size of Chery's factory complete with a 5 mile test track developing 10 cars simultanously. I don't think I even saw a test track at Chery headquarter from videos, just a factory and no R&D.

What's so great about a 5 mile test track. You can just drive your car on the highway at 3am in the morning and use that as a test track. I drove my car upwards of 200kmh on the highway at 3 am because my car was the only one on the highway.

What's so great about a 5 mile test track. You can just drive your car on the highway at 3am in the morning and use that as a test track. I drove my car upwards of 200kmh on the highway at 3 am because my car was the only one on the highway.
1. It's illegal to speed test in public road.
2. For a highspeed endurance testing, like going at 150 MPH until fuel tank goes empty.

1. It's illegal to speed test in public road.
2. For a highspeed endurance testing, like going at 150 MPH until fuel tank goes empty.


Only cars like ferrari and lamborigini can go 150MPH. What's the point of such a test.

You are a real moron. It is quite clear that you just like to be argumentative. Let me ask you, how much funding did Hyundai get in the 70's when it was just a fledgling car company?

Anyways, Chery is just one amongst many carmakers in China. The largest ones are SAIC and FAW and you can bet they have a bit of government support. Your argument is completely ludicrous. You actually think that a country as vast and huge as China cannot have the resources to build a good car company. I dont think you even realize how idiotic your argument is. Besides China will soon become the largest car market, if Chery remains major competitor in that market, it will eventually gain the capacity to compete with the world's best, especially since China's market is also amongst the most competitive in the world, unlike Korea, which used to bar all foreign cars.

Chery has now become amongst the top 3 in car sales. How do you explain that? It is obvious that Chinese carmakers are on an upward trajectory, and no amount of your bashing will change this.

Stop acting like a typical stupid, racist, shallow Korean.

Let me ask you, how much funding did Hyundai get in the 70's when it was just a fledgling car company?
Very little money. This is why they stayed home in the 70s.

The largest ones are SAIC and FAW and you can bet they have a bit of government support.
Does the communist party give them $20 billion hand outs each for R&D?

You actually think that a country as vast and huge as China cannot have the resources to build a good car company.
Not when the foreigners have made themselves comfortable in China and competition is cut-throat at this early stage. China is not a fertile ground for new car companies.

Besides China will soon become the largest car market, if Chery remains major competitor in that market, it will eventually gain the capacity to compete with the world's best, especially since China's market is also amongst the most competitive in the world
Excessive competition is the problem. Young companies need nurturing and protection to survive in the early years. Instead, they are asked to compete with global giants 1000 times their size from the beginning.

unlike Korea, which used to bar all foreign cars.
To buy enough time for its local car companies to mature.

Very little money. This is why they stayed home in the 70s.

But it didn't prevent them from exporting complete pieces of junk throughout the 80's and most of the 90s did it?


Does the communist party give them $20 billion hand outs each for R&D?

I dont know what the exact figure is, but I doubt they need them considering how much they are profiting from their joint ventures with VW and Buick for the past two decades.

Not when the foreigners have made themselves comfortable in China and competition is cut-throat at this early stage. China is not a fertile ground for new car companies.

China is extremely competitive but it hasn't prevented a series of indigenous Chinese car companies from growing and rapidly expanding. This proves that several Chinese automakers are fast learners and will likely become strong competitors.


Excessive competition is the problem. Young companies need nurturing and protection to survive in the early years. Instead, they are asked to compete with global giants 1000 times their size from the beginning.

I wouldn't call companies such as SAIC and FAW young and vulnerable. They are already large companies with vast capacity, the problem is that they haven't focused on building their own brands. But this will change beginning this year. The excessive competition will allow the best brands to emerge, and it seems that local Chinese automakers are beginning to rise to the challenge. So we'll see in ten years who the best will be.

I agree with Edge on the fact that such a big country like China can be sure to output a quality car sooner or later that will make a bang in the US

And if it doesnt work out first, they'll keep trying and trying until they've got a A class car...

If Korea can pump out 2-3 big auto manufacturers, China will pump out 5-6 ...

I agree with Edge on the fact that such a big country like China can be sure to output a quality car sooner or later that will make a bang in the US
Later purhaps. But not for another decade.

If Korea can pump out 2-3 big auto manufacturers, China will pump out 5-6 ...
Korea has just one(Hyundai/Kia group). Japan has just two(Toyota and Honda). The third one, Nissan, is French owned.

It is difficult to survive and prosper in a cutthroad automotive world, even those aspiring newcomers with billions failed to take a root.

Going by history, China can have at most two global players. One is supposed to be SAIC. Which one will be the other?

Auto industry does not depend solely on a giant coorperation or whatsoever, rich the company might be, but the thing that counts most is the whole industrial system a country can offer. You don't build cars, you build parts and assemble them together. China for the moment can build everything say from a screw to a condom. Chinese are capable of designing and assembling the third generation jet fighter(J-10) and main battle tanks(type 98), spaceships etc, and we are developping just like the other nations have gone thru.

I don't think it requires a bachelor's degree to understand that China is like ten times stronger than Korea in terms of overall national power, if not a hundred times. Chinese are talking about surpassing Japan and the states in the future, we don't even care about Korea that much. I've heard people discussing how to make Chery as good as Toyota and Volkswagen, and Hyundai? hell no one gives a jackhead about it, sorry truth hurts.

We will see what happens in the future and I don't mind you carry on with your hatred.

Auto industry does not depend solely on a giant coorperation or whatsoever, rich the company might be, but the thing that counts most is the whole industrial system a country can offer.
Which China doesn't have any.

China for the moment can build everything say from a screw to a condom.
But not fuel injectors and gaskets, so these must be imported.

Chinese are capable of designing and assembling the third generation jet fighter(J-10)
While the rest of world is migrating to 5th generation fighters like F-22 and Typhoon.

Which China doesn't have any.


But not fuel injectors and gaskets, so these must be imported.


While the rest of world is migrating to 5th generation fighters like F-22 and Typhoon.

Your ignorance is hilarious. What S.Korea can produce, China can also; What South Korea has, China has them all too except the GIs.

Don't pretend to know military aviation, Mr.Kimchi.

The raptor F22 is the only fighter plane that is considered 4th generation fighter jet and both the Eurofighter and the french Rafale are 3rd and half generation jetfighters.

Most countries on earth have to buy airplanes or assemble them under licence which includes S.Korea of which the the most advanced fighters are F15K/F16s. Nothing impressive at all.

Don't even try to sound like you knew all these military stuffs, it only reveals your stupidity and inferior complex.

What S.Korea can produce, China can also
Then no need for Hyundai, Kia, and GM(Daewoo) to import from Korea to build their cars in China. But that is not the case.

Whatever Korea can produce, China can produce something similar looking, but not quite equal in quality and performance.

The raptor F22 is the only fighter plane that is considered 4th generation fighter jet and both the Eurofighter and the french Rafale are 3rd and half generation jetfighters.
Eurofighter is a 5th gen alright. This is the only fighter that can dance with Raptor in the sky.

S.Korea of which the the most advanced fighters are F15K/F16s. Nothing impressive at all.
Well, still better than what Chinese got. Especially avionics. Korean versions always carried better and more modern avionics than the USAF version.

Don't even try to sound like you knew all these military stuffs
Actually I do. But this is not a military forum. We are discussing Chinese cars here.

Then no need for Hyundai, Kia, and GM(Daewoo) to import from Korea to build their cars in China. But that is not the case.

Ha, this is just a Korean consipiracy for getting more money. Thousands Chinese part suppliers are eager to produce spare parts for Beijing Hyundai but the Korean refuse to accept, they use ultra high QC which Korean themselves can't reach to block Chinese companies. As I have said before, Hyundai is taking advantage of their initial contract by deliberately refusing Chinese parts to prolong the "30%" tax off for original Korean parts period which was supposed to be only 2~3 years.

Whatever Korea can produce, China can produce something similar looking, but not quite equal in quality and performance.

Since when Korean products can be associated with the word "quality" when there is Japanese production to be compared to? S.Korea products were considered "shitty quality" only some twenty years ago. Now most Korean products are okay in general and sell much cheaper in foreign markets than in their homeland, say Samsung MP3 player and automobiles also. Korean economy is one of the most protective ones, it is still considered market driven tho.


Eurofighter is a 5th gen alright. This is the only fighter that can dance with Raptor in the sky.

You kidding me? what you mean dance in the sky? manuverbility and energy preserving? you think we are still in WW2 and you can play with your rival with those H&R or B&Z tactic?

Have they really danced together at least once?

Well, still better than what Chinese got. Especially avionics. Korean versions always carried better and more modern avionics than the USAF version.

S.Korea better than Chinese got? with your licensed F15K and little falcons? The Korean version of F15E is cool, but Chinese imported Su-30MK and home build under license Su-27(J-11) are no toys, J-10 is already in production and with thousands of obselete J-7 and J-8IIs, I honestly don't think S.Korea has a better airforce, both in quality and quantity.

Actually I do. But this is not a military forum. We are discussing Chinese cars here.

We are talking about national power.

http://www.chrononaut.org/~dm/images/misc/shenzhou5.jpg

Don't waste time with I hate China, he is obviously just here to start trouble.

He has the typical Noveau Riche attitude, those who were poor and suddenly just became rich. They like to show off and put others down. This is quite typical of Korean nationalists, who are typically very ethonocentric and ignorant.

The truth is that China is actually of a great industrial capability than Korea in most fields. But I will not brag about this because China is a great power, and SHOULD be greater than Korea. In the fields where China still lags behind Korea, it will catch up soon or within the next decade. Koreans are already well aware of this, there are many papers in Korean academic circles warning that the technology gap between China and Korea in many consumer goods will disappear within 2-3 years.

It's funny how Real I hate China likes to brag about Korean goods. It hasn't been but 5 years when Korean goods have become deemed "acceptable" and mainstream. Before, Samsung, Hyundai, Kia, have all been a second hand term for cheap, crappy, keep the receipt and wannabe Japanese with no quality. The way this guy is talking, you would think that Korean companies have been setting the BENCHMARK for the world for decades, that Hyundai is synonymous with Jaguar and Toyota. Really, this guy does not realize how big of a joke his argument is.

Let's not kid ourselves. This guy is seriously out of touch with reality and history. Just a typical Korean racist nationalist. They need to enjoy their 3 minutes in the sun, because China will soon overtake them in all of their national industries. Hell, his entire generation of Koreans are learning Chinese today. In 20 years, Koreans will be a Chinese speaking nation. Think about that.

I have a lot respect for the elder Korean generation and most Korean people that I met in real life are very nice. Actually my girlfriend is Korean. She lives in Donjak-gu, one of Seoul's riversouth regions and both she and her little sister have no such "nouveau riche" attitudes which is "tant mieux" for me.:D

Korean love to mention their Korean miracle which indeed is impressive but I honestly don't think the majority of Korean population are internationally rich. I do find a lot of them love to associate themselves with Japanese, say those asian grocery shops in Paris marked with "Japanese and Korean supermarkets" are actually all run by Korean. SAMSUNG was considered a SONY wanabee and so was Hyundai, Toyota wanabee.

And we all know how things are shaping up now. I read that Samsung is already bigger than Sony in terms of marketshare over it's complete line-up of products.

Unfortunately, there are many Koreans just like you, that's why so many other ethnicities find it so hard to get along with Koreans.
Edge I hope you get the chance to live in Korea even for a short time and you will change your mind about Koreans. They are a good people. Afterall what other country has the integrity to indict the top man in the auto industry for corruption.
It may not be good for the economy but Korea is serious about becoming an exemplary model of transparency and above the table business dealings. The 1997 economic crisis was a wake up call for the Korean business community, and since then corporate Korea has been making sincere efforts to earn a reputation for integrity. Sure there are dirtbag Koreans like in any other country but the folks in general are nice and hospitable.