Chinese makers abandoning plans to enter Euro market : too tough to enter. [Archive]

Tiggo

04-20-2006, 07:38 PM

Ironically I see things more positive than the other way around in that report.

Most people in France who have purchased a car like Peugeot 407/607, Citroen C5, BMW 5, Volvo S60 etc may not buy any Chinese cheap cars in the future, but others will.

Most people in europe can't even tell the "nationality" of a non-EU car. They would buy cheap Hyundai, why won't they buy cheaper Chinese cars in the future? They are not like prefer something made in Korea, they just want to have the biggest bang of their bucks.

Real_I_Hate_China

04-20-2006, 08:37 PM

but others will.
The others will be???

If you are thinking Eastern European, please do note that Japanese and Korean makers are already setting up transplants there and Chinese cars + 10% import duty would have to compete against locally produced Toyotas and Hyundais.

They would buy cheap Hyundai, why won't they buy cheaper Chinese cars in the future?
Cheap price alone doesn't cut it; value is the keyword here. In other word, what are you getting for your hard earned money?

they just want to have the biggest bang of their bucks.
And you don't get that biggest bang of bucks by buying Chinese; you just get an unsafe, unreliable, and poorly engineered cheap car for cheap price.

Tiggo

04-21-2006, 02:45 AM

The others will be???

If you are thinking Eastern European, please do note that Japanese and Korean makers are already setting up transplants there and Chinese cars + 10% import duty would have to compete against locally produced Toyotas and Hyundais.

Cheap price alone doesn't cut it; value is the keyword here. In other word, what are you getting for your hard earned money?

And you don't get that biggest bang of bucks by buying Chinese; you just get an unsafe, unreliable, and poorly engineered cheap car for cheap price.

Like only Japanese and Korean are allowed to build factories there?

Again, why would you think something Korean has more value than its Chinese counterpart?

If Chinese products are of such poor reputation, the EU wouldn't worry China taking over all their simpy work positions.

Face it, South Korea has no significant superiority over China, maybe it had for a couple of years, and China is catching up fast.

BTW, what I meant OTHERS were those who bought CHEAP hyundai.

Real_I_Hate_China

04-21-2006, 02:00 PM

Like only Japanese and Korean are allowed to build factories there?
1. Chinese don't have the money.
2. Chinese have to start paying European wages instead of Chinese wages.

Again, why would you think something Korean has more value than its Chinese counterpart?
Because a Hyundai can actually go head to head with Accord and Camry and win the "Best Family Sedan for Under $22,000" competition right now. Hyundai is selling on "value" alone.

Face it, South Korea has no significant superiority over China, maybe it had for a couple of years, and China is catching up fast.
There is a 14 year gap bewteen Korean cars and Chinese cars. The gap is close to 18 years with Japanese cars.

Tiggo

04-21-2006, 03:15 PM

1. Chinese don't have the money.
2. Chinese have to start paying European wages instead of Chinese wages.

Because a Hyundai can actually go head to head with Accord and Camry and win the "Best Family Sedan for Under $22,000" competition right now. Hyundai is selling on "value" alone.

There is a 14 year gap bewteen Korean cars and Chinese cars. The gap is close to 18 years with Japanese cars.

lol

Such a nouveau riche attitude won't lead your country to anywhere.

:lol:

A number of Chinese brands have setup their factories in North America, France, Germany, Italy and have created numerous local jobs and are paying western european wage. Most of them are home electronics manufactuers such as Haier, Hisense, etc.

I would not comment on the year gap thing, but what do you guys have in your inventory to beat the 2002 Lexus, say LS430?

Any car to beat the 2002 Subaru Impreza WRX on the dirt road?

Any car to beat even a Mazda RX8? even a obsolete Skyline? Evo?

Four years gap huh, you think the japanese were asleeping and let you guys walk all the way pass? gimme a break.

Yeah, the 2006 SONATA does in a way have some air of a 2002 Subaru Legacy's face and an Accord's ass, if that's what you are refering to, 4 years.

Real_I_Hate_China

04-21-2006, 07:10 PM

A number of Chinese brands have setup their factories in North America, France, Germany, Italy and have created numerous local jobs and are paying western european wage.

1. An auto factory costs an upward of $1 billion to set up.
2. When Chinese start paying euro and US wages instead of Chinese wages, then they can no longer price compete.

Four years gap huh, you think the japanese were asleeping and let you guys walk all the way pass? gimme a break.
So if it is difficult for Hyundai(currently global ranking no. 6) to close gap with Toyota(global ranking no. 2 going no.1 this year), then imagine what Chinese must do to close their 18 year gap.

Yeah, the 2006 SONATA does in a way have some air of a 2002 Subaru Legacy's face and an Accord's ass, if that's what you are refering to, 4 years.
Sonata is up to date with Accord or Camry. Hyundai has less than a year gap for Segment B(subcompact), C(Compact), and D(Mid-size) products. It is Segment E and the ultraluxury where they are falling behind Toyota, because this segment wasn't Hyundai's focus and they are just getting into Segment E and it will take them another decade or so for them to close the gap like they did with Segment B, C and D.

As for the Chinese, the 18 year gap is just too large to close unless they spend tens of billions in R&D to catch up, which most do not have.

Tiggo

04-22-2006, 04:56 AM

1. An auto factory costs an upward of $1 billion to set up.
2. When Chinese start paying euro and US wages instead of Chinese wages, then they can no longer price compete.

So if it is difficult for Hyundai(currently global ranking no. 6) to close gap with Toyota(global ranking no. 2 going no.1 this year), then imagine what Chinese must do to close their 18 year gap.

Sonata is up to date with Accord or Camry. Hyundai has less than a year gap for Segment B(subcompact), C(Compact), and D(Mid-size) products. It is Segment E and the ultraluxury where they are falling behind Toyota, because this segment wasn't Hyundai's focus and they are just getting into Segment E and it will take them another decade or so for them to close the gap like they did with Segment B, C and D.

As for the Chinese, the 18 year gap is just too large to close unless they spend tens of billions in R&D to catch up, which most do not have.

SONATA？up to date with Camry and Accord? one year? how shameless you can be? :nono:

Again, if you continue to talk with that buck attitude, you just make youself look worse.

Chery automobile was setup in 1997 and after nine years, it sold 26,435 cars in China last month ranking 3rd place on the sale's list and the number is still rocketing. Chinese especially young Chinese are willing to buy home brand autos for various reasons, but unlike your South Korean Hyundai which benefited from ultramate policy protection of your government, Chinese automakers were competing with world's largest and most advanced auto makers from the very beginning. I have faith in Chinese auto brands because if they can survive in China, they can also do it oversea.

Money, huh, you can talk as if Chinese did't have any money to burn, I don't think finacially what a S.Korean has to brag about.

Tiggo

04-22-2006, 05:53 AM

It's not you Korean don't want to build some luxry cars like the Lexus, Acura or Infiniti, you simply cannot compete with Japanesein in that field except maybe in Korea where import duty is like as crazy as that in China for luxry cars. People in China who will buy a luxry car won't even consider S.Korean brand. Truth hurts.

Hyundai has its luxry cars like Equus and Dynasty which you don't see in other countries. You can claim whatever you want, a Korean car is a Korean car and it means CHEAP.

Lexus was first introduced into North America in 1989, it has become the most popular brand for luxry cars in the states. Hyundai is famous for vending cars around $15,000 with your CHEAP SONATA and all......what a one year's gap if you insist.

A Sonata might be as reliable as a Camry or Accord, but it does not necessarily mean the Korean auto industry is like neck to neck with the Japanese. If that's your theory, a lot China's industries are on the same level with international giants.

A Korean car is nothing special but CHEAP.

Real_I_Hate_China

04-22-2006, 07:34 AM

you simply cannot compete with Japanesein in that field except maybe in Korea where import duty is like as crazy as that in China for luxry cars.
I already explained Korean focus on B,C, and D-segment markets until now; that's where 90% of volume is.

People in China who will buy a luxry car won't even consider S.Korean brand. Truth hurts.
Why would they want to buy from a brand that had no intention of selling?

a Korean car is a Korean car and it means CHEAP.
A Sonata's average transaction price is higher than Camry in the US.

Lexus was first introduced into North America in 1989, it has become the most popular brand for luxry cars in the states.
So Hyundai tries its luck in 2007, with a trio of luxury vehicles designed for its still-born luxury brand now rebadged as Hyundais. At least Hyundai seemed to have convinced US buyers to pay $28,000 for a Hyundai right now, let's see if Hyundai can convince $35,000~40,000 for a Hyundai.

So when will we see true Chinese luxury cars? In 2027?

what a one year's gap if you insist.
One year or less for B, C, and D-segment.

A Sonata might be as reliable as a Camry or Accord, but it does not necessarily mean the Korean auto industry is like neck to neck with the Japanese.
Of course not, at least they are not 18 years behind Japanese or they would have been driven out of developed markets a long time ago.

If that's your theory, a lot China's industries are on the same level with international giants.
Up to date Chinese auto industry that cannot pass crash and emissions test.

Tiggo

04-22-2006, 08:46 AM

I already explained Korean focus on B,C, and D-segment markets until now; that's where 90% of volume is.

Truth is, you never gonna sell. Very few people want to spend 30~40k USD on a Korean car.

Why would they want to buy from a brand that had no intention of selling?

No intention of selling? who do you thing you are, the general manager of Hyundai China? I've seen Equus advertisement in Shanghai, if they didn't intend to sell them in China, why would they advertise?

A Sonata's average transaction price is higher than Camry in the US.

I only know that the price of a Sonata equals to a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla, if I can afford a Camry why would I spend on a Hyundai?

I see a lot family owned Elantra in China, but not a lot families are buying SONATA, SONATA just won't sell here even though some of its models are cheaper than a China made Civic which will soon be released. On the contrary, Honda Accord, a lot more expensive than Sonata and produced in Guangzhou, are one of the bestsellers of all time in CHINA.

Sonata just won't sell.

So Hyundai tries its luck in 2007, with a trio of luxury vehicles designed for its still-born luxury brand now rebadged as Hyundais. At least Hyundai seemed to have convinced US buyers to pay $28,000 for a Hyundai right now, let's see if Hyundai can convince $35,000~40,000 for a Hyundai.

So when will we see true Chinese luxury cars? In 2027?

No cheap word needed, we'll see in 2027.

Up to date Chinese auto industry that cannot pass crash and emissions test.

Sure we don't want to replace those last positions held by Korean brands for years.

LZ is SB

04-22-2006, 09:18 AM

LZ is SB...

Ahahahahah...:lol:

Admin

04-22-2006, 09:36 AM

LZ is SB...

Ahahahahah...:lol:

Please elaborate this post?

What does this mean?

Tiggo

04-22-2006, 09:52 AM

Please elaborate this post?

What does this mean?

Now that I know our admin is not native Chinese. lol.

Chinese romanized pinyin acronym....mmm, could take a while to explain to non-Chinese speaking people. :p anyway it's not a compliment.

Real_I_Hate_China

04-22-2006, 04:25 PM

Very few people want to spend 30~40k USD on a Korean car.
Well, at least they convinced people to spend upto $27K.

No intention of selling? who do you thing you are, the general manager of Hyundai China? I've seen Equus advertisement in Shanghai, if they didn't intend to sell them in China, why would they advertise?
Those are from private importers.

Hyundai directly sells only Accent, Elantra, Tuscan, Sonata, and Azera. All other Hyundais are sold by private importers.

I only know that the price of a Sonata equals to a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla,
Unlikely since Elantra, last year's No. 1 best seller in China, was selling at a far higher price than they do in the US or in Korea.

Sure we don't want to replace those last positions held by Korean brands for years.
You have to start from low.

Tiggo

04-22-2006, 04:47 PM

Unlikely since Elantra, last year's No. 1 best seller in China, was selling at a far higher price than they do in the US or in Korea.

Truth is, Elantra is not the only car that sells much higer than in the states or Korea, Accord or Civic in China also are of much higher price than their american brothers. Therefore I don't think it's an unfair comparison.

Last year's overall No.1 best seller is not Elantra, but this one.

http://image2.sina.com.cn/qc/salon/TIANQI/XIALI/XIALIJY/U515P33T6D891F41DT20050107142025.jpg

Elantra was the bestseller No.1 in the category of 100K~150K RMB (13K~18K USD)

Even though SONATA is much cheaper than Accord, it still can't compete with Accord. Guangzhou Honda sold 114,000 Accord in 2005, almost three times more than SONATA.

Families don't buy SONATA, a lot sonatas are purchased by cab companies.

Tiggo

04-22-2006, 04:58 PM

SONATA is a fine car though.

edge

04-23-2006, 12:37 AM

Replying to that jerk is a waste of time. It is obvious that he is delusional and has an agenda of his own. His hate for China goes far beyond than just cars, he is here simply to antagonize.

The truth is that it doesn't matter what he thinks. China's car industry will prosper and become a dominant force on the world stage within the next twenty years. This is because China will soon become the world's largest auto market and China's automakers are beginning to bloom. Plus, there is a large number of Chinese automakers, it is inevitable that at least 4-5 of them will become global players.

The forces that are pushing China to become a great automaking nation are too big to ignore. Only fools like this jerk will focus on little details and not look at the big picture. Don't worry, he'll be eating his words in 15 years.

Real_I_Hate_China

04-23-2006, 01:16 AM

China's car industry will prosper and become a dominant force on the world stage within the next twenty years.
Twenty years is too long for our friend Tiggo, he thinks Chinese cars will take over the world anyday now.

This is because China will soon become the world's largest auto market and China's automakers are beginning to bloom.
So are foreigners. Chinese automarket resembles the US more than Japan or Korea, where strong foreigners dominate over weak domestic manufacturers.

Plus, there is a large number of Chinese automakers, it is inevitable that at least 4-5 of them will become global players.
US has just two global players, GM and Ford.

Japan has just two global players, Toyota and Honda. Nissan was sold to Renault.

Korea has just one global player, Hyundai/Kia group.

China can have two global players at most.

Only fools like this jerk will focus on little details and not look at the big picture.
I see the big pictures just fine, SAIC and FAW becoming two Chinese global players, with the rest(including Tiggo's favorite company Chery) falling a victim to extreme competition in the domestic market.

fightingtorque

04-23-2006, 11:16 AM

big players, small players, the market needs them all.

some players, such as Ferrari, will focus on sports cars only, not particularly important, but nice.

other players, such as Ford, GM, Hyundai, focus more on mass market - not as exciting but more practical and affordable.

If the Chinese are really clever, maybe they could build a 5 seat, sub 10k USD car that can outperform a Ferrari?

It's a big challenge, but these are the guys that built that massive wall that you can see from space.

Who wants to bet how long it takes before a chinese car can eat a Ferrari? 1 yr, 5yrs, 10 yrs?

Real_I_Hate_China

04-25-2006, 10:50 PM

big players, small players, the market needs them all.
The market doesn't need small players.

Who wants to bet how long it takes before a chinese car can eat a Ferrari? 1 yr, 5yrs, 10 yrs?
How about never, given that Porsche was trying for 60 years yet still failed?

Raul

04-26-2006, 03:43 AM

Constructive criticism is always welcome. Some of "I hate China" 's opinions may be true but the way he talks is too aggressive. He has chosen a negative attitude already and won't change his mind no matter what happens. It's useless to argue with him. In all of his comments he is trying to stop what he knows is inevitable, the rise of Chinese car industry.

Tiggo

04-26-2006, 04:46 AM

I personally adore Subaru, not so big a player but damn he's got something really unique and cool. :D

BringIt

04-26-2006, 11:44 AM

BMW and Honda are considered "small" players in the auto world, yet they are probably the most profitable.

pititeurasienne

05-28-2006, 09:38 AM

Admin

05-28-2006, 11:35 AM

FAW is going to launch its Xiali C1 and D1, exposed to the shanghai motor show in 2005, in Europe by 2008.
I think that these cars don't look bad for a price of around 6000€ and 8000€ respectively...
60

61

these will do great, where are they starting in EU? are they starting sales in Eastern europe
?

Real_I_Hate_China

05-28-2006, 01:32 PM

That is if Xiali could pass EU crash and emissions test.

Judging by the struggle of Zhonghua(a luxury car by Chinese standard) to obtain EU certification, I doubt it.

gr8

05-28-2006, 10:56 PM

That is if Xiali could pass EU crash and emissions test.

Judging by the struggle of Zhonghua(a luxury car by Chinese standard) to obtain EU certification, I doubt it.
just watch

Real_I_Hate_China

05-29-2006, 11:09 AM

just watch
Of course.

Tiggo

05-29-2006, 03:13 PM

That is if Xiali could pass EU crash and emissions test.

Judging by the struggle of Zhonghua(a luxury car by Chinese standard) to obtain EU certification, I doubt it.

No one in CHINA thinks Zhonghua is a luxury car, we don't even consider the Hyundai Equus or Dynasty, or KIA Opirus luxury cars in CHINA.(They are called Korean cars)

We have plenty of Audi A6, A8, BMW, Mercedes or Porche to be called "Luxury Cars" in CHINA.

You wanna compare? :nod: