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Real_I_Hate_China said:
I already did.
No, you forgot to call it a "vaporware" too.

Real_I_Hate_China said:
Turbos have a trouble meeting CA emissions standard.
So? Are you implying that there aren't any Turbo charger cars in CA?

Real_I_Hate_China said:
From the catalogs of current mid-size cars sold in the US, like Camry, Accord, Sonata, Altima, etc.
Please explain corolla, yaris, sentra, civic, ION, etc. Why are they so popular in the US with "weak, puny" engines?

Real_I_Hate_China said:
Yea, like Africa, Egypt, Southeast Asia, etc.
Don't forget Europe, Middle East, S America....
You seem to have learnt most of the regions where Chery cars are currently sold. Im glad. Keep it up!
The next step is to goto these destinations and see how the world looks like without so many pickups and minivans.
FYI: Egypt is part of Africa.
 

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Are you implying that there aren't any Turbo charger cars in CA?
There are very few new cars with a turbo.

The reason turbocharged cars are rare in California is that it is difficult to heat up the catalystic converter with a turbo sitting ahead of it. Most auto emission is produced during the first 3 minutes of catalystic converter warm-up period. Faster the heat up, lower the overall emission produced during the test cycle. Turbo prolongs this warm-up, making the car fail the emissions test.

Furthermore, unpredictable air feeding from turbo makes it harder to control fuel supply. For this reason supercharger is preferred to turbocharger in California, or use one of eletro-turbos to precisely control air feeding.

While it is not impossible to do a turbo car meeting CA emissions, it is very difficult, and certainly beyond the skills level of Chery.

Please explain corolla, yaris, sentra, civic, ION, etc. Why are they so popular in the US with "weak, puny" engines?
But that's not what Malcolm Bricklin is going after with his Cherys; he is going after Mercedes and BMWs, remember?

Don't forget Europe, Middle East, S America....
You seem to have learnt most of the regions where Chery cars are currently sold.
Which is the reason why Chery's export volume is so low(30K/year). GM Daewoo exports twice as many Aveos to the US market as all of Chery's exports. You want the volume, you have to go after the US and EU markets, or stay home in China. Afterall, China represents the fastest growing auto market, so what's Chinese motivation for going overseas when they could easily make money at home?
 

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Real_I_Hate_China said:
There are very few new cars with a turbo.
...

While it is not impossible to do a turbo car meeting CA emissions, it is very difficult, and certainly beyond the skills level of Chery.
1 Again, How do you know that it is beyond Chery's skill Level? Are you working for the CheryPower's R&D Dept or what? what is the basis to your claim?

Don't forget, AVL, a company with 60 years of engine design experience is behind most of those ACTECO engines.

Real_I_Hate_China said:
But that's not what Malcolm Bricklin is going after with his Cherys; he is going after Mercedes and BMWs, remember?
2.1 Don't try to change the topic, your claim of "The US market expects 170 HP from a naturally aspirated four banger and at least 240 HP from a V6 right now in 2006." is simply bogus. The market of Mid-size sedans with "puny" engines is and will be strong I think, due to high gas prices.
When priced @ $19,000, the consumer's demand for performance engines will be somewhat less critical when compared with cars in the ranges of.. let's say, $35,000.

2.2 I think we all agree that Bricklin is a bit of a day dreamer. But if you remember Bricklin is going after Mercedes and BMV, then you should also remember VV's highend cars will be equiped with 290BHP 6 banger and 400BHP 8 bangers. (AVL, again)

Real_I_Hate_China said:
Which is the reason why Chery's export volume is so low(30K/year). GM Daewoo exports twice as many Aveos to the US market as all of Chery's exports. You want the volume, you have to go after the US and EU markets, or stay home in China. Afterall, China represents the fastest growing auto market, so what's Chinese motivation for going overseas when they could easily make money at home?
3.1 You are going off on a tangent again, the export volume of Chery was never the discussion point. However, Personally I think Chery is doing OK for a less-than-9-years-old auto company. Comparing Chery with GM is like comparing apples with oranges.

3.2 If I remember correctly, the oversea markets (dealers and distributors like Bricklin) went looking for Chery, not the other way round. So the initiative of "going overseas" is from the Demand side, and not the Supply side. If others want to buy from you, then there isn't any good reason not to sell, right?
 

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And "CheryPower", I mean dude, there has to be a better name for it.

It sounds like something from cartoon network's Powerpuff Girls.
 

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Again, How do you know that it is beyond Chery's skill Level? Are you working for the CheryPower's R&D Dept or what? what is the basis to your claim?
Chery is a company that can't even design its own engines.

The market of Mid-size sedans with "puny" engines is and will be strong I think, due to high gas prices.
It's the SUV sales that are suffering, not mid-size sedan sales.

When priced @ $19,000, the consumer's demand for performance engines will be somewhat less critical when compared with cars in the ranges of.. let's say, $35,000.
For that money, you could buy any of mid-size sedans with 158~175 HP 4 banger engines. For the same price, you are getting less, not more, from Chery.

2.2 I think we all agree that Bricklin is a bit of a day dreamer. But if you remember Bricklin is going after Mercedes and BMV, then you should also remember VV's highend cars will be equiped with 290BHP 6 banger and 400BHP 8 bangers.
I didn't see a V8 listed in that site, did you?

the export volume of Chery was never the discussion point.
It is. Chery could have a 100% market share of some African country with an annual sales volume of 1000 cars. Chery won't profit much from it.
 

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Real_I_Hate_China said:
Chery is a company that can't even design its own engines.
If CheryPower wants to get up to speed fast, the shortest path is to team up with an experienced engine designer. In this case, the famous AVL. Look how long it took Kimchi to come up with presentable engines, Chery doesn't want to made the same mistake.

Real_I_Hate_China said:
It's the SUV sales that are suffering, not mid-size sedan sales.
What are you talking about??? Go back and read my post again, not once I implied the sales of mid-size sedans will suffer due to high gas prices in the US. I wonder if you read sufficient English.


Real_I_Hate_China said:
For that money, you could buy any of mid-size sedans with 158~175 HP 4 banger engines. For the same price, you are getting less, not more, from Chery.
I didn't see a V8 listed in that site, did you?
1. Oh, that's right, when people shop for a car in the $19,000 price range, their Engine's Max. output is the only thing they care about. (dude, really, where are you from?)
Besides, the VV models for the US market will be equiped with 290BHP and 400BHP engines, as Bricklin said. (you are the one who brought Brinklin up in this thread) I think the smallest engine for the US market won't be smaller then the 144KW 2.0L.

2. The V6 290BHP and V8 400BHP are not listed in the ACTECO website yet.
So?
Oh, that's right, they must be - ~~"vaporware"~~.

Real_I_Hate_China said:
It is. Chery could have a 100% market share of some African country with an annual sales volume of 1000 cars. Chery won't profit much from it.
No, YOU started talking about Chery's export volume in this Thread.
Start a new thread if you wish to discuss subject matter further.
 

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If CheryPower wants to get up to speed fast, the shortest path is to team up with an experienced engine designer.
AVL is inferior to Japanese designs.

I implied the sales of mid-size sedans will suffer due to high gas prices in the US.
When priced @ $19,000, the consumer's demand for performance engines will be somewhat less critical when compared with cars in the ranges of.. let's say, $35,000.
You were suggesting that consumers would somehow be willing to accept underpowered Chery engines because of a lower price relative to Mercedes and BMWs, but consumers are not willing to accept less than what they would be getting from $19,000 Japanese mid-size sedans, which is 160 ~ 172 HP.

when people shop for a car in the $19,000 price range, their Engine's Max. output is the only thing they care about.
But people won't even consider a car making less than 160 HP.

VV models for the US market will be equiped with 290BHP and 400BHP engines,
They don't exist.

They don't exist.
 

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Dude, what ever you say, I just realized that it is a completely waste of my time to keep playing your childish games. Shame on me.

Have a good day.

FYI: I hate KimChi... :D
 

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Hater is not incorrect about the turbo making it more difficult to reach catalyst light off in a short time, and that there is an extra complexity in metering the fuel where an extra variable (boost pressure) is added in addition to the usual speed and load parameters.

However, take VW for example, they are fully committed to turbocharging going forward. They pioneered the wideband lambda sensor which means you can run a feedback controlled fuel mixture other than the stoichiometric point. This means you can run a precisely controlled mixture even under full power or warm up conditions (there are some things you can do with ignition timing and mixture to promote early light off of the cat).

Or maybe VW aren't interested in california.

The wideband lambda system has been first used by VW, but I think it's a Bosch invention as they make the sensor. You might want to look at innovate motorsports website to see some more about it - they sell a standalone aftermarket controller for the bosch lambda sensor which is a really neat tool for calibrating modified engines and is one of my favourite gadgets.

Turbocharging enables a smaller lighter engine to give the power of a big heavy engine, and if developed (and driven) with economy in mind can increase the overall economy of an engine operating under a variety of load conditions. Because it effectively makes use of some of the exhaust gas energy there is a thermodynamic advantage. The economy has traditionally been lost because they have been used on high performance cars and people drive them faster, but they are likely to be common on cooking versions in future.
 

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170hp - minimum for the school run

Hater, can you tell us how much hp is pumped out by:

Your toyota corolla
Your dad's car
Your mum's car
your brother/ sister's car (maybe send some photos of your sister with her car)
your neighbour's car
the cars of your mates at school.

Do they all have 170+hp?

And do they all use it? Getting further power from NA engines is mainly about extending the top end rpm, and increasing the volumetric efficiency at high rpm through variable valve timing etc. But there is a limit to how far the general public want to go. How many times does your dad clip the redline on his drive to work? Ask him if he'd like to go another 500 rpm on top of that?

Don't assume that because you want to get a Lotus Elise (most of which have been produced with less than 170hp) that everyone else wants to drive along dialed up all the time.

The average power output of my UK cars (esprit S4, esprit S3, 530i and a tuned 924) is only about 200hp and I consider myself reasonably well off in the horsepower department. And I don't redline them all all of the time (although that's because I'm trying not to blow the S3 up again before I find someone to buy it).
 

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Hello everyone

Well, I'm another korean who is interest in chinese cars (is the hater korean?:confused: ). After reading through the posts in this forum, I think you guys need to improve otherwise this site is nothing more than praising Chinese cars by chinese. Because there is no info about the car, which is actually selling now. It's all about the appearance stuff of new coming models. There is no info from the current owner about the pro or cons of any Chinese cars in the detail. So far what I found what one guy said" the car is ok.... I had driven for a couple of hours..... etc".

Even the professional car reviewer spend time for a couple of weeks and how can he justify the car is ok? I know many reviewers write down the car review after driving a couple of hours but they don't judge the car. They normally talk about the impression from looking or specification stuffs. It's more like the introducing the car rather than concluding the car.

In my humble opinion, the Chinese car better to improve the quality for now than exporting the car to oversea. Well, I saw some one said that Japanese car took 40 years and Korean car took 20 years and Chinese car will take only10 years. But I think the Korean car is not there yet. They are just about to overcome their terrible reputation which they got nearly 2 decade ago. With this reputation, Hyundai was company who was hardly get attention from public. So what they did? They introduced 10 year warranty (later 5years is only applies to power train) in US. 10 years. 10 years!! If they introduced this in Korea, I definitely go to Hyundai every time. What would you expect more than keeping car with least maintenance cost for 10 years? With this warranty and the cheap pricing and improved quality has resulted little bit more attention from people. Is Chinese car ready to provide the better deal than this? or have the better reputation?

In the other hand, all most of major foreign car manufactures selling car in china unlike Korea. Why don't they bit them first? I don't know well how the Chinese car standing in the domestic market. But, I saw the news article once and according to it, the top 3 weren't the Chinese manufactures until last year and this year the cherry just ranked as 3rd for the first quarter. But if they don't count qq what would be their standing? Despite of that, I saw many people mentioned acura, infinit, toyota or honda as a competitors. I believe if Chinese cars can satisfy their own people and being chosen over import cars in china, it will work in the oversea as well. Otherwise, just hurrying to get into US market might result the negative reputation and it would take a couple of decade to overcome or preparing for 10 years or longer warranty …….

I have nothing against chinese, it's just my thought... :thumb:
 

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Welcome! :D

superidler said:
Well, I'm another korean who is interest in chinese cars (is the hater korean?:confused: ). After reading through the posts in this forum, I think you guys need to improve otherwise this site is nothing more than praising Chinese cars by chinese.
I don't know what Hater is. Not many people are praising them, just providing opinions and facts. A few members here also have first hand experience with Chinese cars and provide us with first hand info. Hater has no first hand experience with these vehicles. You mention Chinese praising Chinese cars but as a matter of fact many members on this forum are not Chinese. I am personally fasinated and find all of this stuff interesting and I am not Chinese. I have no preconcieved judgements or stereotypes, unfortunatly it appears am in the minority, especially on some other forums.

superidler said:
Because there is no info about the car, which is actually selling now. It's all about the appearance stuff of new coming models. There is no info from the current owner about the pro or cons of any Chinese cars in the detail. So far what I found what one guy said" the car is ok.... I had driven for a couple of hours..... etc".
A few hours is enough to make judgements on quality, fit and finish as well as performance and handeling of the vehicle in question. There are also a few firsthand owners on this site as I previously mentioned, notably 'FightingTorque'.

superidler said:
Even the professional car reviewer spend time for a couple of weeks and how can he justify the car is ok? I know many reviewers write down the car review after driving a couple of hours but they don't judge the car. They normally talk about the impression from looking or specification stuffs. It's more like the introducing the car rather than concluding the car.
I don't understand what you mean by this statement. A few of these members are actual owners of Chinese vehicles so maybe ask for their opinions as well as reliability of their vehicles for the duration of time that have owned them. As for professional long term reviews, there are non available to me which are written in a language that I can understand.

superidler said:
In my humble opinion, the Chinese car better to improve the quality for now than exporting the car to oversea. Well, I saw some one said that Japanese car took 40 years and Korean car took 20 years and Chinese car will take only10 years. But I think the Korean car is not there yet. They are just about to overcome their terrible reputation which they got nearly 2 decade ago. With this reputation, Hyundai was company who was hardly get attention from public. So what they did? They introduced 10 year warranty (later 5years is only applies to power train) in US. 10 years. 10 years!! If they introduced this in Korea, I definitely go to Hyundai every time. What would you expect more than keeping car with least maintenance cost for 10 years? With this warranty and the cheap pricing and improved quality has resulted little bit more attention from people.
Hyundai genuinely has good quaility and reliability nowadays when compared to most other manufacturers which can be found in the North American market. This has nothing to do with their warranties however warranties entice customers and helps garner trust in the brand in general. Check out JD Power vehicle reliability surveys and you will understand what I mean.

superidler said:
Is Chinese car ready to provide the better deal than this? or have the better reputation?
Yes, Visionary Vehicles, which is the company working with Chery to bring Chinese vehicles to the United States, will offer a 10 year/ 100,000 Mile for their vehicles which equals the best of the industry at this current point in time.

superidler said:
In the other hand, all most of major foreign car manufactures selling car in china unlike Korea. Why don't they bit them first? I don't know well how the Chinese car standing in the domestic market. But, I saw the news article once and according to it, the top 3 weren't the Chinese manufactures until last year and this year the cherry just ranked as 3rd for the first quarter. But if they don't count qq what would be their standing? Despite of that, I saw many people mentioned acura, infinit, toyota or honda as a competitors. I believe if Chinese cars can satisfy their own people and being chosen over import cars in china, it will work in the oversea as well. Otherwise, just hurrying to get into US market might result the negative reputation and it would take a couple of decade to overcome or preparing for 10 years or longer warranty …….
Many Chinese car manufacturers ARE targeting other markets such as Russia, Europe, Africa, other parts of Asia such as Malyasia and Vietnam. A considerably smaller amount of manufacturers are going for the North American market because it is the largest market in the world inturn with a greater possibility for profits and growth, however it is also the toughest to get into. Thats why, for example, Chery is developing vehicles from the ground up aimed to appeal to consumers in this market, as well as vehicles that will comply with all government safety and emission standards. According to their website they also understand the importance of quality and are attempting to create the highest quaility product that they can before they are actually brought to the market.
 

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Yes, Visionary Vehicles, which is the company working with Chery to bring Chinese vehicles to the United States, will offer a 10 year/ 100,000 Mile for their vehicles which equals the best of the industry at this current point in time.
Slapping a 10yr/100K mile warranty on a engine with a designed life span of 120K is a financial suicide.

Chery is developing vehicles from the ground up aimed to appeal to consumers in this market
I am not aware of any other than Tiggo, whose chassis I cannot identify where it came from.

According to their website they also understand the importance of quality and are attempting to create the highest quaility product that they can before they are actually brought to the market.
Is that Chery's website or Visionary Vehicle's website? Just a bunch of lip service(Who says they don't care about quality?) until proven by JD Power's annual Chinese car quality survey.
 

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oh~ I see

Thanks for info AXLE so, they're going to use the magic 10 years policy as well :)

And may be it's only me that takes for a while to judge the car. Coz it's quite difficult to see the significant gap of quality unless you go to medium or premium class as the most of car manufacture has improved their quality in many aspects as time goes. That's why I check the car forum first to see the response from the owners or to learn what to look at, and then go to the dealer for the test drive for the car, which is within the budget.

And I don’t have any particular royal brand as well and that's why I'm interest in the Chinese car. I just wish to see some discussions about the current Chinese car, no the future one. Coz, I don't know where else to find those info and don’t see much in this forum rather than discussion about the future car. so, if anyone owns the Chinese car, can u share your experience such as how is the finish level, noise, engine response, transmission, reliability, fuel consumption, comparison to the well known car etc....?

I'm hungry......:D
 

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Real_I_Hate_China said:
Slapping a 10yr/100K mile warranty on a engine with a designed life span of 120K is a financial suicide.


I am not aware of any other than Tiggo, whose chassis I cannot identify where it came from.
1. The design lifespan is not 120k miles, you made that up.

2. I have an idea where the ahem, inspiration , for Tiggo comes from. Don't you? Try harder mate, I'm not going to spell it out for you.
 

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TROAYVO4TA

Rearrange the above letters. I'm not certain, but have my suspicions. However, since I'm not a cheryknocker and my interest is in how good the cars are rather than any moral argument, I've not looked into it.

Also, I don't care about SUV's. If you want to drive off road, get an off road vehicle. If you want to drive on the road, get something that shifts.


This is probably the only 4x4 video I'll be giving you, so enjoy:

www.fightingtorque.com/video/qingdao2020cruise.wmv
 

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OK now im confused! Wasn't it you that was always going on about how developing a chassis costs "500 million dollars"? How could Chery develop their own "500 million dollar" chassis if by your assumptions Chery cleary does not have these types of funds? Please elaborate Real_I_Hate_China...
 
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