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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Chery is just selling them the ability to build a vehicle, of Chrysler's design
DCX doesn't have a B-segment chassis of its own(other than cost-prohibitive Mercedes A-class chassis), it requires the supplier to use its own.

at a competitive rate and quality rating.
Chery has a J.D. Power and Associate's initial quality rating in the 400s, a junk car by US standard.

If the deal gets complete, Is Chery going to sell the car to Chrysler for about $9000 then Chrysler will put a Dodge badge on the car and sell it for around $12000?
Chery's ex-factory price $7,000
China Inland transportation : $500
Sea shipping + insurance : $1,200
US import duty : $218
US inland transportation : $700
Chrysler Margin : $1,000
Dealer Margin : $1,000
--------------------------------
Total Sticker Price : $11,618

his is the case of a manufacturer designing a car
DCX isn't engineering Hornet. The supplier must come up with its own chassis. The deal with VW fell apart because VW Polo underpinning Hornet was considered too expensive.
 

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Real_I_Hate_China said:
DCX doesn't have a B-segment chassis of its own(other than cost-prohibitive Mercedes A-class chassis), it requires the supplier to use its own.
No...it requires suppliers (assembler and parts suppliers) along with DCX to develop a NEW platform or modify an existing one.
Real_I_Hate_China said:
Chery has a J.D. Power and Associate's initial quality rating in the 400s, a junk car by US standard.
Who's survey? From what country?

In any case, that's based on Chery developed products and not based on DCX developed vehicles.
Real_I_Hate_China said:
Chery's ex-factory price $7,000
China Inland transportation : $500
Sea shipping + insurance : $1,200
US import duty : $218
US inland transportation : $700
Chrysler Margin : $1,000
Dealer Margin : $1,000
--------------------------------
Total Sticker Price : $11,618
Nice numbers...but they're all guesses. How can Hyundai and Daewoo build products that can be sold PROFITABLY in the US for well under $10,000? The Hornet will be sold in the US for considerably less than your $11,618 guess.
Real_I_Hate_China said:
DCX isn't engineering Hornet. The supplier must come up with its own chassis. The deal with VW fell apart because VW Polo underpinning Hornet was considered too expensive.
Volkswagen's cost of building the Hornet was a problem. Germany, the Czech Republic, and Brazil have cost structures that make a B-segment vehicle cost prohibitive for sale in the US. Apparently China and Korea do not have the same problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
No...it requires suppliers (assembler and parts suppliers) along with DCX to develop a NEW platform or modify an existing one.
However Chery comes up with a chassis is none of DCX's concern as long as it is legal; it is not coming out of DCX's pocket. Gotta wonder where Chery will find $500 million necessary to develop a US regulation compliant chassis.

Who's survey?
J.D. Power and Associates

From what country?
Chinese domestic market, 2005.

In any case, that's based on Chery developed products and not based on DCX developed vehicles.
Chery has to develop Hornet, not DCX.

Nice numbers...but they're all guesses. How can Hyundai and Daewoo build products that can be sold PROFITABLY in the US for well under $10,000?
They build cars for B-segment cars for $6,000.

The Hornet will be sold in the US for considerably less than your $11,618 guess.
DCX has no reason to underprice Hornet, so it will be within the Yaris and Versa price range, meaning $11,000~13,000. Chery has to build one at $7,000 to hit an MSRP of $11,500 in the US>

Volkswagen's cost of building the Hornet was a problem. Germany, the Czech Republic, and Brazil have cost structures that make a B-segment vehicle cost prohibitive for sale in the US.
VW version would have been built in Mexico.
 

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Real_I_Hate_China said:
However Chery comes up with a chassis is none of DCX's concern as long as it is legal; it is not coming out of DCX's pocket. Gotta wonder where Chery will find $500 million necessary to develop a US regulation compliant chassis.
Really? You think it's entirely up to Chery? Are you kidding?

Name ANY company who's outsourced EVERYTHING about the development of a vehicle. You really think that DaimlerChrysler would have no input and would pay nothing to develop a new vehicle? Really?

Real_I_Hate_China said:
Chery has to develop Hornet, not DCX.
See above.

Real_I_Hate_China said:
They build cars for B-segment cars for $6,000.
The SELL them for about that. Which means they could easily produce and deliver the Hornet to the US for DaimlerChrysler to PROFITABLY sell it for $10,000.

Real_I_Hate_China said:
DCX has no reason to underprice Hornet, so it will be within the Yaris and Versa price range, meaning $11,000~13,000. Chery has to build one at $7,000 to hit an MSRP of $11,500 in the US>
Underprice it? Dodge is currently selling the Caliber for less money than the Corolla and why wouldn't they have Yaris competitor priced less than the Toyota?

Real_I_Hate_China said:
VW version would have been built in Mexico.
Brazil was a better bet. But I like your confidence....misinformed, but confident.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 · (Edited)
Yup.

You think it's entirely up to Chery?
Or whoever actually lands the contract.

Name ANY company who's outsourced EVERYTHING about the development of a vehicle.
DCX is not trying to develop anything; all they are trying to do is to take a delivery of complete vehicle and sell them for a profit in the US market. This has been done with Japanese and Korean cars in the old days. Similar to Disney-brand DVD players; Disney doesn't engineer and manufacture Micky Mouse DVD players; they simply buy complete DVD players from Chinese and sell them for a profit.

You really think that DaimlerChrysler would have no input and would pay nothing to develop a new vehicle? Really?
DCX will ask Chery to style the vehicle similar to Hornet concept, but that's about it.

The SELL them for about that. Which means they could easily produce and deliver the Hornet to the US for DaimlerChrysler to PROFITABLY sell it for $10,000.
None of Cherys are US regulation compliant. Meeting US regulations could easily jack up the cost by 50% or more. I mean, Chery must build Hornet with imported galvanized high-strength steel sheets, not cheapo local steel, 6 airbags, ABS, California Emission, etc. That's on top of $500 million chassis development cost that Chery must pay.
 

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Real_I_Hate_China said:
DCX is not trying to develop anything; all they are trying to do is to take a delivery of complete vehicle and sell them for a profit in the US market. This has been done with Japanese and Korean cars in the old days. Similar to Disney-brand DVD players; Disney doesn't engineer and manufacture Micky Mouse DVD players; they simply buy complete DVD players from Chinese and sell them for a profit.
You're misguided. This is not a rebadge...this is finding a low-cost manufacturer for a DaimlerChrysler product. It's not a Mitsubishi Precis or Pontiac LeMans or Dodge Colt.
Real_I_Hate_China said:
DCX will ask Chery to style the vehicle similar to Hornet concept, but that's about it.
Again, no. DaimlerChrysler is looking for a low-cost ASSEMBLER!
Real_I_Hate_China said:
None of Cherys are US regulation compliant. Meeting US regulations could easily jack up the cost by 50% or more. I mean, Chery must build Hornet with imported galvanized high-strength steel sheets, not cheapo local steel, 6 airbags, ABS, California Emission, etc. That's on top of $500 million chassis development cost that Chery must pay.
Oddly enough, Hyundai and Kia and Chevrolet sell vehicles for less money than $12,000 in the US. I fully expect the Hornet to sell in the same range as the Accent, Rio, and Aveo. And Chery's not paying $500 million out of the pocket...the vehicle will be financed by DaimlerChrysler. Why would Chery (or ANYONE) pay half a billion dollars to develop a car for someone else, just to get paid $6,000 per copy? If Chery made $1,000 per vehicle, that would mean Dodge would need to sell 500,000 just for Chery to break even...and that's not going to happen in the lifespan of these vehicle.

DaimlerChrysler, on the other hand, might not make money but they could offset worse gas mileage vehicles (know about CAFE?) where they would make a $10,000 or so per vehicle. Chery's not paying for the development of this car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
this is finding a low-cost manufacturer for a DaimlerChrysler product.
So you misunderstood the terms of deal.

It's not a Mitsubishi Precis or Pontiac LeMans or Dodge Colt.
It is.

Oddly enough, Hyundai and Kia and Chevrolet sell vehicles for less money than $12,000 in the US.
Hyundai and GM Daewoo enjoy the economy of scale that Chery doesn't. Hyundai(Accent & Rio) and GM Daewoo(AVeo) are selling at least 300,000 copies of their B-segment vehicles a year worldwide(US, China, India, Europe, Korea, etc).

And Chery's not paying $500 million out of the pocket...
They are.

the vehicle will be financed by DaimlerChrysler.
Nope.DCX already rejected preexisting Polo chassis over cost, even though they didn't have to pay for its development cost. Why do you think DCX is suddenly willing to pay $500 million for a chassis development when they didn't have to with the VW Polo-derivative deal? Why do you think DCX was outsourcing Hornet in the first place anyway? So that they don't have to pay for R&D and production line!

Why would Chery (or ANYONE) pay half a billion dollars to develop a car for someone else
Because it would be a Chery owned, not DCX, vehicle.

just to get paid $6,000 per copy?
Chery executives being overly optimistic and desperate for a deal.

If Chery made $1,000 per vehicle, that would mean Dodge would need to sell 500,000 just for Chery to break even...and that's not going to happen in the lifespan of these vehicle.
Chery gets to sell the vehicle under its own brand in China and elsewhere.

Chery's not paying for the development of this car.
DCX might be lucky to sell 300K Hornets in the North American market over 5 years; Paying $500 million to develop a car with a revenue potential of only $3.5 billion doesn't make any sense financially. Hence it is DCX's decision to sell somebody else's car(paid for by somebody else) under its own brand, that's what Hornet deal is all about.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Actually, I was under the impression that the Mk4 Golf/Jetta platform was then going to be used, because the tooling's all paid for.
And risk a lawsuit from VW? Entering the US with a pirated car?

But, maybe the Hornet will end up on the A15 platform, hopefully?
A15 cannot be modified to meet US crash test standard, you basically need to redesign the whole thing from scratch, with thicker frame and body panels.
 

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DaimlerChrysler & Chery JV Update

CEO: DaimlerChrysler talking with China's Chery about Dodge joint venture

FRANKFURT, Germany: DaimlerChrysler AG said Friday it is holding talks with China's Chery Automobile Co. about a possible joint venture that would make cars for the Dodge brand for sale in the U.S.

CEO Dieter Zetsche was asked during a visit to Beijing about the status of talks with Chinese automakers to beef up Chrysler Group's model lineup and offer smaller, more fuel-efficient cars for the Dodge brand as demand for SUVs and larger models wanes.

He said the company was in talks with several possible partners, but when asked if Chery was the preferred partner, he said: "It's fair to say."

Zetsche said he was optimistic that a decision would be reached in the "not so far future," according to DaimlerChrysler. However, he added that he could provide no timetable "because you can only talk about your own position. It takes two to tango." Zetsche was in China ahead of the Beijing auto show this weekend.

China has the world's second-largest car market after the United States, with 7 million new vehicle sales per year.

In September, DaimlerChrysler formally opened its first factory to make Mercedes-Benz and Chrysler sedans in China — part of the company's €1.5 billion (US$1.9 billion) investment in China.

The Beijing factory, which produces Mercedes E-Class and Chrysler 300C sedans, as well as Mitsubishi's Outlander sport utility vehicles, is a joint venture with a Chinese partner, state-owned Beijing Automotive Industries Corp.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/17/business/EU_FIN_COM_Germany_DaimlerChryser_China.php


So its fair to say Chery is the preferred partner right now.
I wonder if this deal will actually go though. Both of them seem pretty interested in this deal.
 

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Chrysler signs small-car deal with China's Chery

By Kevin Krolicki
DETROIT (Reuters) - Chrysler has signed a pioneering deal with China's Chery Automobile Co. to produce a new small car that would be made in China and marketed around the world, Chrysler said on Friday.

Chrysler Chief Executive Tom LaSorda signed the preliminary deal with Chery representatives several weeks ago, Chrysler spokesman Jason Vines said.

The deal must still be approved by the Chinese government and the supervisory board of Chrysler's corporate parent, DaimlerChrysler AG (DCXGn.DE) (DCX.N), which meets next in January, Vines said.

If the long-anticipated partnership is approved by both sides, it would mark a major advance toward China's goal of taking exports from its fast-growing auto industry into the developed markets, including the United States.

Chrysler began seeking a partner to make a new subcompact that would be marketed in the United States and other markets earlier this year.

The automaker said it needed to find a partner because of the costs of designing, making and marketing a car in a segment of the market where margins are already narrow and consumers expect a low sticker price.

Chrysler showed off a small car concept earlier this year, called the Dodge Hornet, which is expected to show the design direction for the new small car.

Vines said Chrysler would not comment on the expected time table for production or other details of the pending joint venture, except to say that the new car would carry one of the Chrysler car brands.

The Hornet, a two-door hatchback, is smaller than the Dodge Caliber, the smallest vehicle in Chrysler's current line-up.

The subcompact segment represented just 1 percent of the overall U.S. vehicle market in 2005, but growth in the segment has been fast because of increasing concern over gas prices.

Auto entrepreneur Malcolm Bricklin had been negotiating with Chery on a deal to bring Chinese-made cars to the U.S. market. But talks between Bricklin's company, Visionary Vehicles, and Chery broke off last fall.

Bricklin had initially proposed a joint venture to develop and sell Chery-made cars in the United States by 2007, but many industry analysts had questioned whether the Chinese automaker would be ready to meet quality and safety standards that soon.

Chery, a medium-sized but fast-growing automaker in the eastern city of Wuhu, already exports its own branded vehicles to roughly 20 countries, mostly developing nations in Southeast Asia, Africa and the Middle East.

A Chery representative was not immediately available to comment on the deal with Chrysler.

Malaysian carmaker Proton Holdings Bhd (PROT.KL), a state-controlled company, has also been in partnership talks with Chery to consider a joint car assembly operation.

Proton said earlier this month that those partnership talks had been extended through February.
 

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Forget about that kimchi....he's like a joke anyway.

I will buy a CHINESE automobile as soon as it reaches EU market. Be it Brillance or Chery.....


:cool:
 

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A Big Boost For The Chinese Auto Industry

i agree w/ all of you, this is great news for the chinese auto industry-to get a big global player, albeit one still in some trouble-to trust it to produce one of their models for world-wide distribution is a great scoop. congratulations to chery motors!
 

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FORD could be next - the significance of Chrysler-Chery deal

According to major news source Bloomberg FORD may very well follow Chrysler's lead and GM is watching closely too.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=a6PDYfVjvzQE&refer=germany

Here is some of the highlights.

DaimlerChrysler AG picked China's Chery Automobile Co. to build small cars for its U.S.-based Chrysler unit, the first plan by a major automaker to sell Chinese cars in the world's largest auto market.

"This is big,'' said Rebecca Lindland, an auto analyst at forecasting firm Global Insight Inc. in Lexington, Massachusetts. ``If the Chinese could pull this off and provide a high-quality, low-cost vehicle in the U.S., it creates a threat to every automaker who distributes in North America.''
Chrysler is US branch of German DaimlerChrysler, because of that it is less concerned about the image of being patriotic in US than FORD and GM. FORD and GM clear aware the cost advantage of bring Made-in-China cars to US but so far reluctant to do some because they are afraid of Walmart effect. This deal give the perfect excuse to their board and shareholders to follow the foot steps of Chrysler and out source productions to China. It is a deadly game and you have to catch up with your competitors, no one would blame FORD and GM once the rebagged Chery lands in US.

That is what I think is the biggest significance of this deal.

Ford Motor Co., the second-biggest U.S. automaker, also lacks a subcompact in the U.S. and may be next to arrange such a production venture, Cole said. General Motors Corp., the world's biggest automaker, gets the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact from its GM Daewoo Auto & Technology Co. affiliate in South Korea.
FORD right now is reaching out to TOYOTA for help which I find really ironic. Why would you bow to your arch rival and what good can you get out of it??? Is TOYOTA really gonna help you to get back on your feet and regain market share in US?? :confused:

Now thanks to Chrysler-Chery deal, FORD might have been given another way out.

GM is now making Aveo through its GM-controlled Daewoo. According to REAL_I_HATE_CHINA, even korean native hyndai has not expended its capacity in korea due to korean "Mafia" unions. If GM is to expand its subcompact segment production in the future, I bet it will sniff around in China first.





The agreement is ``just another step in the growth of the auto industry,'' Cole said. ``Chinese companies are going to have a difficult time competing globally without a significant injection of key intellectual property. In this case, Chery will get help meeting U.S. emissions and safety standards, which are far more stringent than has been the case in China.''
Sorry to disappoint all the Chery bashers, you can't play that "can't meet emission & safety standards" card anymore :lol:


``Chery doesn't have the bandwidth or attention span to handle both,'' Bricklin said in a statement read by spokeswoman Wendi Tush. ``Hearty congratulations to Chery. We think it's a smart move for Chrysler.''
Bricklin is finally telling the truth about the breakup now, he is now in the acceptance stage, the last of the 5 stages of grief.

If any of the Chery bashers needs psychological counseling to help you move quickly through 'denial - anger/bashing - bargaining - depression - acceptance", here is a link.

http://www.pcsearle.com/


In November, Automotive News Europe reported that Chery was also in talks with Fiat SpA's Alfa Romeo in China, citing an unidentified person at Fiat.

Chery planned to sell 281,000 vehicles in China this year and 30,000 overseas, Vice President Jin Yibo told reporters in Beijing on July 27. The company produced 189,000 vehicles in 2005 and exported 18,000. It had six models that year, with plans to release more this year, according to Chery's Web site.
A good example here, when you establish yourself as a player and demonstrated your ability to compete, foreign companies will want to form alliance with you.


Geely Automobile Holdings Ltd., which in January was the first Chinese automaker to display vehicles at the Detroit auto show, has said it plans to sell cars in the U.S. by 2008.
Geely and some of the others smaller player aren't that far behind. My guess is when they reach a production level of 300K or so some foreign auto makers will try to form alliance aimed at global competitiveness. Probably all start at the subcompact segment first.




Chrysler-Chery deal has printed a new road map for Chinese auto makers to expand to overseas markets.

1. Increase local production and gain a significant foothold in domestic market
2. Partner-up for initial overseas expansion. Partner up with local producers for undeveloped markets, partner up with name brand auto makers for developed markets. This way, avoid costly mistakes made by hyndai/kia.
3. Solo overseas adventure once the water has been tested.

This is what I see so far and I believe it is solid and realistic.





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chinoy54 said:
congratulations to chery motors!
i disagree, being laughed at in the american market is a costly way to tarnish the image of all chinese car makers, the ridicule and piss taking in the american press will be damaging. chery is not to be trusted with such responsibility
 
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