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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The J-10 looks nothing like the Lavi, and Israel never put the Lavi into production it was only a concept. China's air force already has hundreds of J-10's in service and is going to build thousands more, and they have already taken orders for the plane from middle eastern countries. The J-10 is bigger and much more powerful than the Israeli Lavi, It has a top speed of mach2.5
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
proximal said:
Yeah, it's really, really similar to the IAI Lavi, which was never put into production. The J-10 is about equivalent to a later F-16.
J-10 top speed - mach 2.5

F-16 top speed - mach 2.0

that's like comparing mclaren F1 top speed 229mph to a corvette top speed 168mph
 

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Real_I_Hate_China said:
Then again, Chinese really think QQ was engineered in China...
:lol:

someone is getting a little bit jealous here.

Copy me a fighterplane and I'll probably buy it. :lol:

 

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hazik said:
J-10 top speed - mach 2.5

F-16 top speed - mach 2.0

that's like comparing mclaren F1 top speed 229mph to a corvette top speed 168mph
I can't find any speed data for the J10 (aside from Mach 1.85 for the Russian engined ones) but they are considered to be in the same class regardless. In any event, here's more info on the J10: http://www.air-attack.com/page/42/Chengdu-J-10.html
 

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The J-10 looks nothing like the Lavi
Looks like a replica to everyone else.

and Israel never put the Lavi into production it was only a concept.
You do realize that Lavi was developed with US congress's money and US technology assistance as a form of military aid in the early 80s, until the US changed its FMS policies and agreed to the direct sales of F-15s and F-16s instead?

Israeli had no legal rights to sell Lavi design to the Chinese and this transaction caused an uproar in the US, subsequently resulting the ban of Israeli participation in joint weapons development.

China's air force already has hundreds of J-10's in service and is going to build thousands more, and they have already taken orders for the plane from middle eastern countries.
Lavi/J-10 is an 80's technology by the western standard and is pretty much obsolete. Nothing the US or its allies' AWAC + AMRAAM system can't take care of.

Anyhow, Lavi/J-10's airframe, radar, and avionics are of Israeli/US origin. Chinese only changed the engine to Russian ones as they couldn't source the US F-111 engine that Lavi was intended to have.
 

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Real_I_Hate_China said:
Looks like a replica to everyone else.


You do realize that Lavi was developed with US congress's money and US technology assistance as a form of military aid in the early 80s, until the US changed its FMS policies and agreed to the direct sales of F-15s and F-16s instead?

Israeli had no legal rights to sell Lavi design to the Chinese and this transaction caused an uproar in the US, subsequently resulting the ban of Israeli participation in joint weapons development.


Lavi/J-10 is an 80's technology by the western standard and is pretty much obsolete. Nothing the US or its allies' AWAC + AMRAAM system can't take care of.

Anyhow, Lavi/J-10's airframe, radar, and avionics are of Israeli/US origin. Chinese only changed the engine to Russian ones as they couldn't source the US F-111 engine that Lavi was intended to have.
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Real_I_Hate_China said:
Looks like a replica to everyone else.
Don't try to speak for everybody, there are like more than six billions people out there. It looks identical or replica or whatever you name it to your kimchi raised brains doesn't mean the others ALL think the same, let along the truth.

Just look at the photos, anyone who is on his normal mind wouldn't call it a replica, not even the airframe.



CHINESE J10


EUROFIGHTER


F16


quoted from somewhere.....

Yes J10 is based on the israel Lavi, like F22 is based on its predecessor F14/F15/F16/F18 which based on F4/F5 which based on F111/F86 which based on GERMAN technology Focke-Wulf Ta 183 Heinkel He 162 which were also fathers to Soviet's jets like MiG-9, and later MiG-15/17 and just todate SU-27....blah blah blah

It is no secret that Israel secretly approached China with Lavi technology. China selectively purchased some of the Lavi's tech due to limited budget and manufacturing level. So, yes, the J10 is based on Lavi designs. China purchased it legally. Nothing wrong with that and you call that "COPY"? SO Hyundai COPIED from american car manufacteures when they released their first PONY? huh?



That said however, J-10 is not a simple copy of Lavi, it's not possible to design a fighter like that when it uses a bigger engine and has larger airframe.they are different in dimensions and also weaponry. I guess the chinese ws-10a and type 1473 is israeli technology too huh? look at the lavi and the j-10 pictures. the tail is different, the intake is different. The j-10 looks more like a Eurofighter Typhoon than a f-16 while Lavi, on the other hand, has almost exactely the same color as an improved F16.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/July2006/0706watch.asp

DOD seemed to offer a re-assessment of the capabilities of China’s F-10 fighter, which it previously had compared to the F-16 Block 30. (See “Washington Watch: Chinese Military Is Catching Up—Fast,” September 2005, p. 12.) In this latest version of the annual China report, the Pentagon said the F-10 is probably more comparable to the Eurofighter Typhoon and French Rafale, considered among the top three fighters in the world today, after the US F-22A. The Pentagon expects more than 1,200 F-10s will be built, and improved versions—the F-10A and “Super-10”—are in advanced development.

According to the Pentagon, the Chinese J-10 fighter is more comparable to the Eurofighter Typhoon and French Rafale. It is interesting that Chinese media reports said that the chinese J10s took Flankers to school that it was not even funny. Can anyone post some stats/characterisics that was released officially? It seems to me now that the Chinese J-10 is now the premier fighter in Asia? is it better than the korean f-15s/japanese planes? oh well, the chinese stealth fighter will rule all....maybe except the American Raptor and top secret Russian fighters.

Well hater, you may be someone knows well about automobiles, but I am sure there are plenty other things you don't know, therefore why don't you just shut up on this topic and eat your kimchi?
 

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China purchased it legally.
US funded 60% of Levi's development owned 60% of it, and they surely didn't approve Lavi sales to China.

Lavi transaction was illegal because it lacked the US approval. But doesn't matter, because Lavi is fairely obsolete anyway, especially in avionics department. Lavi pilots won't know what hit them when they actually go into a real battle.
 

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Real_I_Hate_China said:
US funded 60% of Levi's development owned 60% of it, and they surely didn't approve Lavi sales to China.

Lavi transaction was illegal because it lacked the US approval. But doesn't matter, because Lavi is fairely obsolete anyway, especially in avionics department. Lavi pilots won't know what hit them when they actually go into a real battle.
Well, I guess you got pretty confused at the terms..."fund"

If you gave me 100 bucks, then the 100 bucks belong to me now, unless before you handed over the money you said something like "you can't give any of the 100 dollars to John, or I won't give the money to you."

I don't care what deal had been done or what restrictions had been made between Israel and the US for the Lavi plan, CHINA purchased those technology legally which, mind you, is not even close to what J-10 has to offer; but from CHINA's point of view, CHINA did not violate any of the international laws or stuffs. And it's obvious it was NOT because of CHINA that Lavi plan was aborted.

Lavi is obsolete? yes of course if compared to the F22 raptor it sure is obsolete now, I mean which plane is NOT obsolete? however, if there were an Lavi in service, it would be on par with the eurofighter or the french flying cheese rafael, at least more advanced than maybe 90% of the other fighter planes on earth, it would pawn the early version of F16 or other second generation jet fighters like F-5, MiG-23/27, Mirage F1, MiG-19/21, and are clearly on par with any of the existing 3rd generation fighers like F16C/D, F18D, or the Japanese version Lavi, F2, if not better. So is a J-10.

And beside, what you mean by obsolete? aero design? weaponary? computing? do you think the F16E/F is the same falcon as the F16A/B? don't you know that you can just upgrade your weapon control system?

J-10 is not on par with the F-22, like any other jet fighters on earth. Well it's more than obvious that China's next generation stealth fighter has achieved significant progress, otherwise the J-10 could not have been released.
 

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I don't care what deal had been done or what restrictions had been made between Israel and the US for the Lavi plan, CHINA purchased those technology legally
The sales is not legal since there is a non-transfer clause; Israel cannot transfer the tech to 3rd party with the US consent. Hence the sales was never legal, but the sum paid by China was large enough to risk a diplomatic dispute.

but from CHINA's point of view, CHINA did not violate any of the international laws or stuffs.
But from the US and EU's perspective Levi sales was illegal.

if there were an Lavi in service, it would be on par with the eurofighter or the french flying cheese rafael, at least more advanced than maybe 90% of the other fighter planes on earth
Levi was supposed to be an F-16 substitute when the US could not offer it to Israel. But when the US changed its weapons sales policy and offered F-15 and F-16 to Israel, Levi became unnecessary.

it would pawn the early version of F16 or other second generation jet fighters like F-5, MiG-23/27, Mirage F1, MiG-19/21, and are clearly on par with any of the existing 3rd generation fighers like F16C/D, F18D, or the Japanese version Lavi, F2, if not better.
Ask why Israeli were happy to drop Lavi for the real F-16.

And beside, what you mean by obsolete? aero design? weaponary? computing?
Lack of BVR(Beyond Visual Range) combat capability.

don't you know that you can just upgrade your weapon control system?
Chinese weapon control system is 20~30 years behind the US system.

Lavi/J-10 might be sufficient enough for dogfights against Taiwanese airforce planes without the AWAC cover, but they just don't stand a chance against the BVR combat system provided by US AWACs(or compatible AWACs operated by US allies such as Japan and Korea). Basically, Chinese warplanes would be blown out of sky without their pilot ever seeing the enermy
 

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Real_I_Hate_China said:
The sales is not legal since there is a non-transfer clause; Israel cannot transfer the tech to 3rd party with the US consent. Hence the sales was never legal, but the sum paid by China was large enough to risk a diplomatic dispute.


But from the US and EU's perspective Levi sales was illegal.
This is the biggest bullshit I've ever heard, and you just talked like you made those political decisions for Israel.


Real_I_Hate_China said:
Levi was supposed to be an F-16 substitute when the US could not offer it to Israel. But when the US changed its weapons sales policy and offered F-15 and F-16 to Israel, Levi became unnecessary.
Ask why Israeli were happy to drop Lavi for the real F-16.
I've said it before, if you don't know it well, don't make such groundless claims and eat your kimchi.

On 7th June 1981, eight F16s escorted by six F15s of the IAF stroke the Iraqi nuclear reactors and destroyed them.

Lavi project was canceled in 1987 when the falcons had already served in Israeli Airforce for almost a decade!

Lavi was intended to replace the F16s that IAF had, but the US, after getting aware of the potential harm Lavi would make to its huge F16 sales, forced the israelie government to abort the Lavi plan, not because F16 is on par with the Lavi. Same goes for the Japanese F2, only it survived because Japanese compromised and the F2 is beefed and also F2 is too expensive compared to a cheaper F16.


Real_I_Hate_China said:
Lack of BVR(Beyond Visual Range) combat capability.
Again you talked as if you knew it like the back of your hand. Chinese J-10 constently beat the shit outta flankers Su-27 which had sufficient BVR combat capability. and again, if you compare it to US' F22 raptor and call that obsolete, serve youself.


Real_I_Hate_China said:
Chinese weapon control system is 20~30 years behind the US system.
So what? even it's 40 years lagging behind US, before that the gap was FOREVER. CHINA is still catching up, be prepared to see the next generation to be closer to US standard.

Real_I_Hate_China said:
Lavi/J-10 might be sufficient enough for dogfights against Taiwanese airforce planes without the AWAC cover, but they just don't stand a chance against the BVR combat system provided by US AWACs(or compatible AWACs operated by US allies such as Japan and Korea). Basically, Chinese warplanes would be blown out of sky without their pilot ever seeing the enermy
Again, why should CHINA and the US be fighting each other in the first place? the world changes everyday, CHINA and the US were close allies during the great world war II, it's not that CHINA was infected by communism for like 30 years made the country an enemy of the US, not to mention that the current Chinese communist party is more capitalist than governments like France or Germany.

it's not just Chinese warplanes would be blown out of the sky like a turkey hunt, for the moment, any airforce on earth won't stand a chance to confront the mighty US airforce's raptor, fair enough, nothing to be particularly afraid of, it is the truth but at least unlike our Korean or Japanese neighbors who know nothing but purchasing downgraded US fighters, Chinese are doing some serious work trying to make their own indigenous jet fighters which in the long run will so benefit China's technology development.:lol:
 

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Chinese J-10 constently beat the shit outta flankers Su-27 which had sufficient BVR combat capability.
I don't know where you get the idea that Su-27 has a sufficient BVR combat capability.

be prepared to see the next generation to be closer to US standard.
While China's enermies are currently operating US-spec systems.

Again, why should CHINA and the US be fighting each other in the first place?
1. Taiwan
2. Tibet
3. North Korea
4. China's future agression wars.

the world changes everyday, CHINA and the US were close allies during the great world war II
Allies with Koumintang, not commies.

it's not that CHINA was infected by communism for like 30 years made the country an enemy of the US
It is at the US Department of Defense.

not to mention that the current Chinese communist party is more capitalist than governments like France or Germany.
France and Germany have no problem purchasing US weapons they want. US goes extra-length to prevent Chinese from acquiring its weapons technology, however.

it's not just Chinese warplanes would be blown out of the sky like a turkey hunt, for the moment, any airforce on earth won't stand a chance to confront the mighty US airforce's raptor, fair enough, nothing to be particularly afraid of, it is the truth but at least unlike our Korean or Japanese neighbors who know nothing but purchasing downgraded US fighters, Chinese are doing some serious work trying to make their own indigenous jet fighters which in the long run will so benefit China's technology development
I don't think you understand how the modern air combat works. It is the AWAC's radar and control system that searches for enermy and guides missiles, not the fighter aircrafts themselves which are nothing more than missile carriers under AWAC cover. The AWAC would be tracking Chinese fighters and delivering missiles long before Chinese fighter's rader detects anything, so the Chinese fighter pilot wouldn't know what hit him before getting blown out of sky. This BVR combat principle is the same for all aircrafts including F-22, whose sole advantage is that its radar cross section is smaller so it can approach the enermy much closer before firing the missile.
 

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The J-10 is no copy, some say it's based off the Lavi but in reality it hardly is. if at all. China did buy some tech from Russia (such as the engines) but it is very much a unique aircraft. The Chinese are designing a domestic engine to replace the Russian one right now, should be ready soon. I_hate_China is right, it stands no chance to the F-22 raptor. But allegedly they have a "Super-10" in development which would be closer in performance. Also, I hear that there is a sucessor to the J-10 in development, called the J-XX right now, which would be stealth and comparable to the F-22.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Real_I_Hate_China said:
I .


1. Taiwan
2. Tibet
3. North Korea
4. China's future agression wars.


.

err. You lose all credibility when you include Tibet there. No country in the world recognizes Tibet as a country and no country will go to war over Tibet. Tibet has been part of China for 400 years longer then US has been a country.
 

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Do the Chinese make a vertical take off Fighter plane like the Harrier Jump Jet? Now that was a technical tour de force in it's day. I know the Brits are working with Lockeed to develop the JSF although rumour has it that the Brits may pull out and go it alone....
 

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hater, seriously, quit posting in this thread please, you know jackhead about modern aviation warfares.

You just don't admit it. By googling won't help, you aint know nothing about jetplanes compared to what you really know about automobiles.
 
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