[BringIt]

I for one, am sick and tired of hearing about piracy in China. Every country / company / person, sometime in history, has pirated (copy, steal, whatever) others. It's not like China invented piracy and then made piracy a national policy, while everyone else were angels.

Did you know Americans pirated twice as much software and media than the Chinese? Who's the bigger pirate? I guess since Americans are stealing from Americans, then it's okay? :nono:

Since this is a car forum, let's stick to cars.

Don't you think, even this day and age, that GM would take a new Toyota and disassemble it down to the nuts and bolts to analyze it? GM would then "R&D" their own version of the technologies they liked instead of making a carbon copy - so that's now more ethical?

The way I see it, is that Chinese companies are just very bad pirates, and the bigger players are smart and savvy pirates. That's the only difference.

 

[Real_I_Hate_China]

that GM would take a new Toyota and disassemble it down to the nuts and bolts to analyze it?

That's legal. Every company in the business does that. I am sure the first Kia Sedona sold is probably in Toyota and Honda's chopshop by now that it was declared the safest minivan in the world.

Nothing wrong with stripping down your competitor's product to analyze it.

GM would then "R&D" their own version of the technologies they liked instead of making a carbon copy - so that's now more ethical?

That's the key point; what GM engineered is a functional equivalent, not a carbon copy.

Piracy is defined as an unauthorized replication of somebody else's IP, be it a movie, music, or auto parts. A piracy is established when the parts exchangeability is established. Funtional equivalents are not exchangeable with each other. Chevrolet Cobalt's rear suspension design may have been influenced by VW's Golf suspension design, but you cannot exchange parts with each other.

This is not the case with Chery, where you can swap body panels and doors and they fit perfectly.

Chery's official explanation? They claim they bought the right to QQ and Son Of Orient from Daewoo before it was sold to GM. But they refuse to show any supporting document when asked about this alleged transaction. So what happened? Chery paid a group of Daewoo engineers to leave their country with stolen plans and to recreate those Daewoo vehicles in China.

 

[Real_I_Hate_China]

It is OK to tear down your competitor's product and incorporate the learned secrets into your own design, as long as doing so does not violate any patents.

It is not OK to mechanically replicate your competitor's product however, that's called piracy in the west. Looking alike is fine. Being able to swap parts with the legit product is not.

 

[Admin]

to define piracy , we need a law specialist here

 

[BringIt]

Chery is a perfect example of an unintelligent pirate. Companies pays industrial spies for each other's secrets all the time. But the savvy companies hide their track so well, no one catches them (kinda like in crime, only the stupid thieves get caught).

Chery paid ex-Daewoo engineers for their knowledge and secrets, then was too lazy to mask it - add a cm here and there, mix it up - and simply made a carbon copy. Who knows, Chery may have been stupid enough to think they had the legal rights, since they paid for it from ex-Daewoo employees. Any savvy company would not have let that happen.

 

[Real_I_Hate_China]

Who knows, Chery may have been stupid enough to think they had the legal rights, since they paid for it from ex-Daewoo employees. Any savvy company would not have let that happen.

Chery had been in auto business for only 3~4 years by the time they acquired Daewoo blue prints and didn't know what they were doing. Chinese have a very weak grasp on the concept of IP.

I was in one course and coding this huge project by myself and one Chinese classmate was asking me "Why are you coding this all by yourself? Why don't you share code with other students"? I was totally speechless. But the school can't do a shit about this, since 90% of student body in my engineering school is Chinese/Indian, with very few non Chinese/Indian like myself.

The US is pretty much doomed when Chinese have taken over the classes and labs of its engineering schools.

 

[BringIt]

But fortunately these Indian and Chinese students stay in the US and propel the US economy ahead! They have done this for decades.

In recent years though, more and more of these bright minds go back to their home countries. Not a good trend for US.

Chery supposedly attracted a lot of US engineers, mostly of Chinese descent, to go work for them in China. Hey, even I'd like to go! Sounds like fun.

 

[Real_I_Hate_China]

Chery supposedly attracted a lot of US engineers, mostly of Chinese descent, to go work for them in China. Hey, even I'd like to go! Sounds like fun.

But Chery doesn't have $500 million to do a completly fresh project, so these guys are restricted by funding they have.

First 10 years is really tough, with little cash and resources to do the projects, and this is when the survivors and those who die out are decided.

Based on Japanese and Korean examples, the ratio is 1:5. For every 5 companies that try, only 1 make it big.

Will Chery make it? I know their engineering staff is pretty patriotic, but the management is overambitious and is stretching Chery beyond its capabilities. Note that only 1 out of 6 Chery offering is successful, the QQ. This tells you that Chery should first concentrate all its efforts on B-segment first, then slowly migrating into C and D segments a decade later. The way they are doing it, they are going to bleed to death from their poorly selling C & D segment offerings

 

[cryptonx]

aha , i see , poor souls , lets all donate so they can gather $500 million so they can develop a CHASIS and maybe give each and everyone of us a free car ! since they are nice ppl u know ..

I know some chery engineer who look handsome ( despite his few hairs on his head ) but what the hell , would you like his number ? he has a fetish for chasis , you might satisfy him as well

 

[Tiggo]

Gimme a chasis and I'll make it fly.

 

[fightingtorque]

hater, it seems you are still at school. no wonder you know so much, all that time just reading stuff. sometimes you sound quite well informed, I was beginning to wonder if you might be a GMDAT engineer or something, but I'm afraid you're rumbled.

ever seen the inside of a car or car parts factory?

ever driven a car?

ever been to china?

ever seen or been in a chinese car?

ever been involved in a 500M USD programme to develop a CHASSIS? neither have I actually, although I think the engines are a quite important part of the car.

 

[Real_I_Hate_China]

ever seen the inside of a car or car parts factory?

No.

ever driven a car?

Sure, on my second after I killed my first Camry in a winter car crash.

ever been to china?

No.

ever seen or been in a chinese car?

There are no Chinese cars around here.

ever been involved in a 500M USD programme to develop a CHASSIS?

Automotive engineering is not what I am trained for.

neither have I actually, although I think the engines are a quite important part of the car.

Chassis is the single most important component of a car, it defines its shape, volume, safety and road-going performance. BMWness is defined by BMW chassis. Immitators will try to beat a BMW with more powerful engines, yet they fail to do so because their chassis aren't as good.

Lotus is a chassis only company; they only build their chassis and body in house, while everything else including engine and tranny is outsourced. Then what defined Lotusness? Is it Toyota engine and transmission? No.

As long as Chery lacks its own chassis and resort to pirating other company's chassis, they are not a real auto company. The cars rolling off Chery factory are really VWs and Daewoos, not Cherys.

 

[fightingtorque]

presumably the Camry chassis only cost 490M USD and therefore didn't work well on slippery roads.

The engine in both my existing Lotus and the one I am in the process of buying were made by Lotus. However, nowadays the cost of engine development is too high for Lotus to be able to develop their own engines, although they can afford to develop their own CHASSIS. Interesting.