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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I started a thread about how I hate communism? Or how I think the chinese government violates civil rights? Would those accessing this forum through chinese servers suddenly be blocked? I'm very curious.
 

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I don't think so. When I am in China, and I go regularly, I can easily access many sites that promote the Dalai Lama, Tibetan independence or even have pictures of Tiananmen.

However, I did notice I had a hard time finding info about Falungong on the Chinese google. But I found a great deal of sensitive information on other topics. I am not sure why.
 

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What's wrong with Communism? Ideally it creates the perfect society, doesn't it? The reason why it doesn't work is because it's against human nature, which is all about greed and personal interests. That's why, the dog-eat-dog world of capitalism works.

Tiannemen square incident? It was handled badly but imo it was a necessary evil. If it was not cracked down forcefully, China would be embroil in civil war and broken apart right about now - at the delight of the west and Japan.

Human rights? It goes hand in hand with prosperity. As China gets richer, people will be more free. Give it time.
 

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BringIt said:
What's wrong with Communism? Ideally it creates the perfect society, doesn't it? The reason why it doesn't work is because it's against human nature, which is all about greed and personal interests. That's why, the dog-eat-dog world of capitalism works.

Tiannemen square incident? It was handled badly but imo it was a necessary evil. If it was not cracked down forcefully, China would be embroil in civil war and broken apart right about now - at the delight of the west and Japan.

Human rights? It goes hand in hand with prosperity. As China gets richer, people will be more free. Give it time.

I agree with this. Hopefully China can eventually become a democracy and the Tiananmen issue can be revisited and have closure.

But I think Americans SERIOUSLY misunderstand China. But that's not surprising, the media here intentionally demonize China and paint a negative spin whenever possible.
 

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human rights issue is focussing on two things - freedom of speech & info and the widespread use of the death penalty for crims.

on the freedom of speech & info issue, what the government is delivering is a situation where nearly everybody is enjoying a better standard of living with each passing year. not all governments can say that - in England we all have more stuff - televisions, dvds, cars etc than the previous generation but in terms of quality of life it's not so clear, we all seem to have to work longer hours and can't afford to buy houses to put all that electronic gear in.

on the death penalty, before criticising how crims are dealt with here, you have to consider a single country with 1.3 billion people, many of whom are as wealthy as the best westerners, whilst in amongst them you have people on 100 USD per month, and yet I would say there is less violent crime, less petty crime and definitely LESS PEOPLE BREAKING INTO, NICKING OR VANDALISING MY MOTOR than in England. so if strict punishment is what it takes, then maybe it's not a bad thing for the overall population.

where they are going wrong, is that in Shanghai at least they have caught that stupid feckin idea off the west of sticking bast'd speed cameras everywhere. now if we could find the tool that came up with that sick invention I think we should definitely instate the death penalty in what ever country the sick perv is hanging out in.
 

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China's eastern coastal cities are probably the best places on earth for Chinese people.....Hongkong, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Tsingdao......

Many Chinese live around 100 USD a month, probably true, but you have to bear in mind that in China, the living expenses is so low, even comparing to our neighbors like S.Korea and Japan, not to mention the western european nations.

My girlfriend was shocked that a watermelon, in summer, costs less than ONE euro in China and my familiy usually buys these watermelon by volume say 100 kilograms.....in Korea you have to pay at least ten times more for a watermelon of no better quality.(I've tasted SK melons,they are the same thing!) Apples and other indegidous household fruits are like dirt cheap in China, while in S.Korea you buy them by the number of FIVE and they are more expensive than their parisian counterparts......

You have to think about the purchasing power. I honestly believe the purchasing power of a Chinese with moderate income in cities like Shanghai and Hangzhou is somehow equal to their S.Korean and Taiwanese counterparts, if not higher.

Hongkies have the same GDP per Capita/Norminal as Japanese do, while their purchasing power is way higher than Japanese.
 

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Which is what I mean - the government is delivering a good and ever improving quality of life for the people. Ok it's not a democracy, but if it was I'd vote for these guys anyway. Apart from the speed camera issue!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Hmm. I just got a new job temporarly (I'm going back to school) and one of the things I do is catalog religious news from newpapers, internet sites, and international news agencies (Reuters, AP, AFP, etc) across the world and enter them into a database. The atrocities, illegal arrests, stupid charges (such as "libeling china" wtf is that?) that the chinese government uses against christians as recently at 2005 (I haven't archived articles from 2006 yet) are disgusting, despicable and totally out of line with human rights standards in western countries. After looking over a lot of the articles I archive, I'm starting to doubt if China has really improved as much as you all claim. :nono: In fact, from what I'm reading, China looks more like a backwards, barbaric, totalitarian country (that just happens to be improving economically) run by a despotic (yet pragmatic) regime than a modern 21st century nation, and the quantity and variety of news sources covering the despicable behavior by the chinese government is overwhelming. Sorry if this gets you guys in trouble with your censors. :(
 

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in need of illumination

fm.illuminatus said:
In fact, from what I'm reading, China looks more like a backwards, barbaric, totalitarian country (that just happens to be improving economically) run by a despotic (yet pragmatic) regime than a modern 21st century nation, and the quantity and variety of news sources covering the despicable behavior by the chinese government is overwhelming. Sorry if this gets you guys in trouble with your censors. :(
Sadly misinformed about a great civilization but at least you are reading.

Pick up some Chinese history books and while leaving out the last 57 years (for arguments sake), have a look at the years 551BC to 479BC, the Tang and Song Dynasty years, and the years between 1800 and 1850, when China's doors were forced open. China may not be a model of virtue but her contributions to humanity are invaluable.
And now she's doing a bang-up job of building the kind of machines all of us here at the forum love.
 

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it's good here. they have lots of christians, more in fact than there are communist party members. loads of muslims as well (mainly in the west). i'm sure there are things going on that I don't pay attention to, but I still think the country runs well and the government is delivering a fast improving quality of life to the majority. AND STILL MY CAR HAS TWO WING MIRRORS ON IT WHICH IS MORE THAN CAN BE SAID FOR MY LOTUS IN ENGLAND AT THE MOMENT.
 

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clarification

Should clarify that a "bang-up" job means a great one......
not that I'm trying to appease the censors or anything......
 

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fm.illuminatus said:
Hmm. I just got a new job temporarly (I'm going back to school) and one of the things I do is catalog religious news from newpapers, internet sites, and international news agencies (Reuters, AP, AFP, etc) across the world and enter them into a database. The atrocities, illegal arrests, stupid charges (such as "libeling china" wtf is that?) that the chinese government uses against christians as recently at 2005 (I haven't archived articles from 2006 yet) are disgusting, despicable and totally out of line with human rights standards in western countries. After looking over a lot of the articles I archive, I'm starting to doubt if China has really improved as much as you all claim. :nono: In fact, from what I'm reading, China looks more like a backwards, barbaric, totalitarian country (that just happens to be improving economically) run by a despotic (yet pragmatic) regime than a modern 21st century nation, and the quantity and variety of news sources covering the despicable behavior by the chinese government is overwhelming. Sorry if this gets you guys in trouble with your censors. :(

Again, like I said before, getting your information from only Western sources is the worse way to learn about a country.

Try living in China for five years, and you will understand the reality. It is a very complex country with thousands of years of history, far longer than the West. I think what you said is very insulting, actually. It only reflects a lot of Western arrogance and ignorance, it really isn't worth a reply.
 

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Another thing that I want to add is that democracy is not easily achieved, a notion that many dumb Americans do not understand. Even American democracy took more than two hundred years to cultivate. The US was never a true democracy until only 40 years ago, during which, nearly 190 years passed since it was first "proclaimed" a democracy.

A democracy requires RULE OF LAW, an educated population, prosperous economy and social stability to be successful, this takes time. China is heading towards that direction with its economic growth, growing modernity, an increasingly sophisticated legal system and a more affluent and educated population.

The US was never a democracy until the Civil Rights movement. Up to the 60's, you had Black regularly lynched and murdered without impunity, and by US government officials too, in the South. So where was democracy there?

The US took its time to build democracy, in fact, it took two hundred years. I don't understand why Americans feel so imperative to demonise other countries conditions when their own democracy took so long to develop and is yet to be perfect. The only true motivation is to use "democracy" and "human rights" as political tools. That's what's going on in the Middle East today, as the US occupies and invades other countries in the name of bullshit democracy, only creating chaos and death in the process.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
edge said:
Again, like I said before, getting your information from only Western sources is the worse way to learn about a country.
Western sources have been traditionally more accurate, and I'm sorry, but only national pride would stand in the way of people believing that. Western journalism is BY NO MEANS friendly to the west (in fact, CNN and BBC, etc are usually biased against western interests) and in fact even have a reputation for appologizing for dictators. If western news sources admit it's bad, it's REALLY bad.

edge said:
Try living in China for five years, and you will understand the reality. It is a very complex country with thousands of years of history, far longer than the West. I think what you said is very insulting, actually. It only reflects a lot of Western arrogance and ignorance, it really isn't worth a reply.
The problem is that as a westerner living in china, the government would treat me differently for the purpose of (obviously) making china look good to westerners. Additionally, you shouldn't be insulted that I'm pointing to problems with your current government. Just because the chinese government isn't perfect doesn't detract from chinese culture or many years of diverse and amazing (IMO) history. That you would be defensive about it might indicate there is something to hide...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
edge said:
Another thing that I want to add is that democracy is not easily achieved, a notion that many dumb Americans do not understand. Even American democracy took more than two hundred years to cultivate. The US was never a true democracy until only 40 years ago, during which, nearly 190 years passed since it was first "proclaimed" a democracy.
I understand that democracy takes a long time, and much effort, and even so called "dumb" Americans have been forced to understand this, given the situation in Iraq. We expected we could make a democracy in a few years out of a culture that had never seen it and we were niave and wrong.

edge said:
A democracy requires RULE OF LAW, an educated population, prosperous economy and social stability to be successful, this takes time. China is heading towards that direction with its economic growth, growing modernity, an increasingly sophisticated legal system and a more affluent and educated population.

The US was never a democracy until the Civil Rights movement. Up to the 60's, you had Black regularly lynched and murdered without impunity, and by US government officials too, in the South. So where was democracy there?
You point is well taken, and correct.

edge said:
The US took its time to build democracy, in fact, it took two hundred years. I don't understand why Americans feel so imperative to demonise other countries conditions when their own democracy took so long to develop and is yet to be perfect. The only true motivation is to use "democracy" and "human rights" as political tools. That's what's going on in the Middle East today, as the US occupies and invades other countries in the name of bullshit democracy, only creating chaos and death in the process.
I have no interest in demonizing China, or it's people, and I understand that democracy is a long and hard road to travel. That being the case though, killing and imprisoning people because of their religious beliefs is NEVER excusable. In fact, it was one of the things we (the United States) never did (except in isolated insidents, if that), even when we had other flaws in our democracy (like slavery). This, of course, only looks poorly on the government of china, and is in no way a condemnation of chinese people in general.
 

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fm.illuminatus said:
Western sources have been traditionally more accurate, and I'm sorry, but only national pride would stand in the way of people believing that. Western journalism is BY NO MEANS friendly to the west (in fact, CNN and BBC, etc are usually biased against western interests) and in fact even have a reputation for appologizing for dictators. If western news sources admit it's bad, it's REALLY bad.



The problem is that as a westerner living in china, the government would treat me differently for the purpose of (obviously) making china look good to westerners. Additionally, you shouldn't be insulted that I'm pointing to problems with your current government. Just because the chinese government isn't perfect doesn't detract from chinese culture or many years of diverse and amazing (IMO) history. That you would be defensive about it might indicate there is something to hide...

So you say that Western media is completely unbiased and completely factual. Well, you came to your conclusion that China is consistently deteriorating and things are getting worse based on your extensive reading of material from the Western media. How is it that you came to a conclusion that is diametrically opposed to the reality if the Western media was so accurate, and your findings are completely based on the content provided by diverse sources of the media? By all levels when it comes to political, personal, economic freedom or living standards, nutritional intake, economic development, China is progressing at a rapid pace. How is it possible that all these monumental progress is ignored and that you came to the conclusion that the situation in China is deteriorating?

And oh BTW, I am Chinese American. I am not a native Chinese. However, I travel to China often and have many relatives there, so I'm in touch with my roots and the ground reality of today's China. I'm not saying things in China are perfect, but it is rapidly progressing and the images portrayed by the Western media is often misleading.

If the Western media is so perfect, how did the American people so willingly swallow all the lies the Bush administration fed them about the war on Iraq?
 
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