[fm.illuminatus]

I started a thread about how I hate communism? Or how I think the chinese government violates civil rights? Would those accessing this forum through chinese servers suddenly be blocked? I'm very curious.

 

[fm.illuminatus]

Hmm, maybe the government is lightening up. Open information is good for business.

 

[fm.illuminatus]

Hmm. I just got a new job temporarly (I'm going back to school) and one of the things I do is catalog religious news from newpapers, internet sites, and international news agencies (Reuters, AP, AFP, etc) across the world and enter them into a database. The atrocities, illegal arrests, stupid charges (such as "libeling china" wtf is that?) that the chinese government uses against christians as recently at 2005 (I haven't archived articles from 2006 yet) are disgusting, despicable and totally out of line with human rights standards in western countries. After looking over a lot of the articles I archive, I'm starting to doubt if China has really improved as much as you all claim. :nono: In fact, from what I'm reading, China looks more like a backwards, barbaric, totalitarian country (that just happens to be improving economically) run by a despotic (yet pragmatic) regime than a modern 21st century nation, and the quantity and variety of news sources covering the despicable behavior by the chinese government is overwhelming. Sorry if this gets you guys in trouble with your censors.

 

[fm.illuminatus]

hey guys..what are you trying to do...get this website shutdown

Sorry.

 

[fm.illuminatus]

Again, like I said before, getting your information from only Western sources is the worse way to learn about a country.

Western sources have been traditionally more accurate, and I'm sorry, but only national pride would stand in the way of people believing that. Western journalism is BY NO MEANS friendly to the west (in fact, CNN and BBC, etc are usually biased against western interests) and in fact even have a reputation for appologizing for dictators. If western news sources admit it's bad, it's REALLY bad.

Try living in China for five years, and you will understand the reality. It is a very complex country with thousands of years of history, far longer than the West. I think what you said is very insulting, actually. It only reflects a lot of Western arrogance and ignorance, it really isn't worth a reply.

The problem is that as a westerner living in china, the government would treat me differently for the purpose of (obviously) making china look good to westerners. Additionally, you shouldn't be insulted that I'm pointing to problems with your current government. Just because the chinese government isn't perfect doesn't detract from chinese culture or many years of diverse and amazing (IMO) history. That you would be defensive about it might indicate there is something to hide...

 

[fm.illuminatus]

Another thing that I want to add is that democracy is not easily achieved, a notion that many dumb Americans do not understand. Even American democracy took more than two hundred years to cultivate. The US was never a true democracy until only 40 years ago, during which, nearly 190 years passed since it was first "proclaimed" a democracy.

I understand that democracy takes a long time, and much effort, and even so called "dumb" Americans have been forced to understand this, given the situation in Iraq. We expected we could make a democracy in a few years out of a culture that had never seen it and we were niave and wrong.

A democracy requires RULE OF LAW, an educated population, prosperous economy and social stability to be successful, this takes time. China is heading towards that direction with its economic growth, growing modernity, an increasingly sophisticated legal system and a more affluent and educated population.

The US was never a democracy until the Civil Rights movement. Up to the 60's, you had Black regularly lynched and murdered without impunity, and by US government officials too, in the South. So where was democracy there?

You point is well taken, and correct.

The US took its time to build democracy, in fact, it took two hundred years. I don't understand why Americans feel so imperative to demonise other countries conditions when their own democracy took so long to develop and is yet to be perfect. The only true motivation is to use "democracy" and "human rights" as political tools. That's what's going on in the Middle East today, as the US occupies and invades other countries in the name of bullshit democracy, only creating chaos and death in the process.

I have no interest in demonizing China, or it's people, and I understand that democracy is a long and hard road to travel. That being the case though, killing and imprisoning people because of their religious beliefs is NEVER excusable. In fact, it was one of the things we (the United States) never did (except in isolated insidents, if that), even when we had other flaws in our democracy (like slavery). This, of course, only looks poorly on the government of china, and is in no way a condemnation of chinese people in general.

 

[fm.illuminatus]

So you say that Western media is completely unbiased and completely factual. Well, you came to your conclusion that China is consistently deteriorating and things are getting worse based on your extensive reading of material from the Western media. How is it that you came to a conclusion that is diametrically opposed to the reality if the Western media was so accurate, and your findings are completely based on the content provided by diverse sources of the media? By all levels when it comes to political, personal, economic freedom or living standards, nutritional intake, economic development, China is progressing at a rapid pace. How is it possible that all these monumental progress is ignored and that you came to the conclusion that the situation in China is deteriorating?

I never said china was deteriorating, just improving (in terms of human rights) more slowly than some of the people here would like to believe. No media source is completely unbiased, but western media is normally biased AGAINST the west, strangely enough, so with that in consideration, reports by western media on chinese human right's abuses indicate a pretty severe problem.

And oh BTW, I am Chinese American. I am not a native Chinese. However, I travel to China often and have many relatives there, so I'm in touch with my roots and the ground reality of today's China. I'm not saying things in China are perfect, but it is rapidly progressing and the images portrayed by the Western media is often misleading.

If the Western media is so perfect, how did the American people so willingly swallow all the lies the Bush administration fed them about the war on Iraq?

Because unlike what monday morning quarterbacks are saying now, before the Iraqi war, it was the general consensus amoung western nations and intelligence servicies that Saddam possessed WMD's. Ultimately, he did, just not nearly as many as were thought. The WMD's were not a "bush fabrication" but were believed by nearly every western nation. That now democrats and other countries are trying to backpedal on their previous positions and blame bush is stupid and childish to say the least.

Anyhow, I never said the western media was perfect, but I'm more inclined to believe western reports of human rights abuse in china than chinese denials of them.