What if?

fm.illuminatus said:

I understand that democracy takes a long time, and much effort, and even so called "dumb" Americans have been forced to understand this, given the situation in Iraq. We expected we could make a democracy in a few years out of a culture that had never seen it and we were niave and wrong.

I have no interest in demonizing China, or it's people, and I understand that democracy is a long and hard road to travel. That being the case though, killing and imprisoning people because of their religious beliefs is NEVER excusable. In fact, it was one of the things we (the United States) never did (except in isolated insidents, if that), even when we had other flaws in our democracy (like slavery). This, of course, only looks poorly on the government of china, and is in no way a condemnation of chinese people in general.

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First of all, it is no surprise that there is no democracy in Iraq, because IT WAS NOT OUR INTENTION TO PUT DEMOCRACY THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. The Bush administration invaded Iraq to do three things, expand US influence in the region and intimidate regional rivals such as Iran and Syria, take hold of Iraq oil resources and to protect Israel.

The US is just like any other country, it is not a philanthropist. It's policies are guided by its interest, not by any moral virtue. In the case of Iraq, US foreign policy was hijacked by a group of hawkish American nationalists and Israeli sympathizers called the neoconservatives which have led the US to the disaster in Iraq today.

And don't forget the people in Iraq are not idiots. They have seen Western imperialist powers invade them before under the name of "civilization" and "democracy". These are only code words for domination and exploitation. Iraq was a colony of Britain for nearly a half century, so it is well versed as to the pretentions of Western imperialism.

Also, it is funny that you would dismiss slavery so easily while championing the fact that the US always had "religious freedom". So I guess it is a greater character of democracy to believe in whatever religion you want to believe in than the fact that live human beings are being held as human cattle.

edge said:

So you say that Western media is completely unbiased and completely factual. Well, you came to your conclusion that China is consistently deteriorating and things are getting worse based on your extensive reading of material from the Western media. How is it that you came to a conclusion that is diametrically opposed to the reality if the Western media was so accurate, and your findings are completely based on the content provided by diverse sources of the media? By all levels when it comes to political, personal, economic freedom or living standards, nutritional intake, economic development, China is progressing at a rapid pace. How is it possible that all these monumental progress is ignored and that you came to the conclusion that the situation in China is deteriorating?

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I never said china was deteriorating, just improving (in terms of human rights) more slowly than some of the people here would like to believe. No media source is completely unbiased, but western media is normally biased AGAINST the west, strangely enough, so with that in consideration, reports by western media on chinese human right's abuses indicate a pretty severe problem.

edge said:

And oh BTW, I am Chinese American. I am not a native Chinese. However, I travel to China often and have many relatives there, so I'm in touch with my roots and the ground reality of today's China. I'm not saying things in China are perfect, but it is rapidly progressing and the images portrayed by the Western media is often misleading.

If the Western media is so perfect, how did the American people so willingly swallow all the lies the Bush administration fed them about the war on Iraq?

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Because unlike what monday morning quarterbacks are saying now, before the Iraqi war, it was the general consensus amoung western nations and intelligence servicies that Saddam possessed WMD's. Ultimately, he did, just not nearly as many as were thought. The WMD's were not a "bush fabrication" but were believed by nearly every western nation. That now democrats and other countries are trying to backpedal on their previous positions and blame bush is stupid and childish to say the least.

Anyhow, I never said the western media was perfect, but I'm more inclined to believe western reports of human rights abuse in china than chinese denials of them.

fm.illuminatus said:

I never said china was deteriorating, just improving (in terms of human rights) more slowly than some of the people here would like to believe. No media source is completely unbiased, but western media is normally biased AGAINST the west, strangely enough, so with that in consideration, reports by western media on chinese human right's abuses indicate a pretty severe problem.

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I don't know if you've EVER been out of the United States, but that's a dangerously naive point of view to hold. How is the Western media critical of the West? It is unapologetically a propaganda machine for American domination of developing countries. Take the Iraq war for example, take the current Israeli pounding of Lebanon for example, every tone, every nuance, is an uncritical defense of Western domination.

Anyhow, I never said the western media was perfect, but I'm more inclined to believe western reports of human rights abuse in china than chinese denials of them.

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Not that I'm defending the Chinese state media, but the Western media is just as biased because their reporting is fueled by a political agenda. That is to say that it is not neutral. They have a purpose with their selection of stories, fabrication of facts and twisting of reality. There are many political motives behind Western reporting on Non-Western countries, whether it is in China, Iran, Syria, Palestine, etc. Basically, if you are a non-Western country that is not completely subservient to the West, you will be sharply criticized in the US media. However, if you are a non-Western country that is a slave to the West, you will be spared a critical eye.

Honestly, I doubt you have ever been a non-Western country. Probably the most "exotic" place you've ever been was Canada or Britain.